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A person is pinned under a truck which is on fire and slowly roasting him to death. You are the only one there and he begs you put him out of his misery. The place is isolated and no help will arrive. What would you do? Pray for him as he slowly dies in excruciating pain? Or put him out of his misery as he requested?
I can tell you that I drowned a kitten once on a similar basis (not my kitten) after a pittbull (not my dog) had gutted it beyond repair. We were all in shock. It didn't have long to live but it was something like a spontaneous reaction from me. I can tell you I was praying as I was killing and pretty darn hard too. It stayed with me for days afterwards and would periodically "reverberate" on me down the road. Very difficult decision. I seriously doubt I would have that kind of conviction with a person though. Whatever is said here, I contend that people don't know with certainty, until they are faced with extreme stuff, what they can or cannot do. Five minutes before I did that, I would have told you I was not capable of it.
Boy, that would be a tough one. I'd feel more inclined to try to lift the truck - hoping I'd be blessed with superhuman strength (like we've heard examples of).
I just don't know what I'd do if that did not work.
Val makes an excellent point: What we think or say now, in the comfort of our home or office, may or may not be what we would do if we were in that horrible situation.
Curious: Starman, what do you think you'd do?
A very very tough one. I like how Val described and explained her story and its very true what she says about you say no now, but when you are in that situation is a different story.
It's about all I can do to work through the real moral dilemmas I encounter on a regular basis, so I don't have a lot of energy left for hypothetical ones. I hope never to have to make such a choice. I think Val's right that forethought about such things is probably irrelevant in any case.
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Originally Posted by RickJ
I would put an end to his unnecessary useless suffering in the name of compassion.
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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Hypotheticals could remedy vast energy expenditure when faced with moral choices issue. In fact, that's the reason such hypotheticals are included in all ethics curriculums is because dealing with them in a hypothetical beforehand prepares us better to handle them if they should suddenly arise. Otherwise we'd have to go through the whole gamut of pros and cons on the spot and perhaps even then remain in a quandary while the man screams in agony for our assistance in ending his pain. No, I am not saying that is what you should do. Each has his conscience. But we shouldn't be in a state of utter paralyzed confusion if such a situation--God forbid!--should ever arise.
BTW
Soldiers, medical doctors, lawyers, are all trained via hypotheticals so they can be prepared when the real situation arises. Lack of this training could lead to horrendous results--such as firing into a crowd of bystanders, killing someone on the operation table, or defending a client poorly in a court of law.
In some odd way, at least for me, I think the decision would be easier if it were someone I knew well.
Over the years, I have had to have two gravely ill cats euthanized. Though I think about these decisions from time to time, never have I considered other than that I did the right thing. I felt I knew my animals well enough to make that decision for them at that point. And yet, I have brought injured wild animals to the Tufts University Wildlife Clinic, even when I knew there was probably little hope.
Though it goes against nearly all I believe in, if there was simply, absolutely nothing else I could humanly do, and there were a humane method of ending their agony, it would probably be the compassionate thing to do, as well as probably being something of an obligation as a human being.
Though I am absolutely 100% against abortion, the death penalty, etc. -- I do lean somewhat toward making a slight allowance for euthanasia in very extreme cases. Suffering can have a purpose, but only up to a point.
Though, particularly in the case of someone I did not know, I think it really is a decision one could really only make in the moment.
Either way, afterwards of course, I would pray for both of us.
If I told more of the details of how the kitten incident occurred, it would become much clearer that I was directed to end its suffering by something or someone beyond me. All I did was not resist it but go with it instead. Does that still make me responsible? Oh indeed since those were my hands. But to answer Prissy's excellent 2x4 question, I believe all would be provided, just like it was with that poor kitten, to make it possible to do what is asked of you, if it is asked. I don't believe in coincidences unless you say that's God being anonymous. There is a certain feel to when you are riding the spiritual horse in the right direction, if you will, that I often recognise. If you would like the details of it, I will oblige but it is an upsetting story.
I think every human life is worth fighting for. Things may seem hopless on the first look, but many times things are not as bleak as they first appear, and miracles do happen.
The description provided still leaves a little room for saving the victim trapped under the truck...
If there is more than a few minutes, there's time to do a number of things that could save that person's life... They might be begging you to kill them to end the pain, but that doesn't mean with certainty that they cannot survive the event.
If the fire were so bad that the victim would certainly be killed within a minute or so anyway... it seems likely that by the time I collected myself enough to realize there was nothing I could do, they'd probably already be dead.
If that unique circumstance did come up though, I'd like to think that I would be able to end that person's suffering.
I'm interested in hearing on how the kitten incident occurred if you don't mind talking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow
Given those exact circumstances, end the suffering and pray for forgiveness.
If I'm really so mistaken about what is right and moral, and these actions alone keep me from the divinity of heaven... well then I probably don't belong there anyway.
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Originally Posted by kp2171
If you are doing a just thing why pray for forgiveness?
BTW
I did'n't say that you are always mistaken in reference to what's right and moral. Sorry if I gave that impression. Actually, even if you were making all types of mistakes God would look into the heart and if he saw sincerity would forgive based on Jesus' ransom sacrifice. Those who go to heaven don't earn there way there. They are imputed righteousness based on that sacrifice.
John 1:29 KJV
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Pray for forgiveness... why did I say it that way... I think the memory would be terrible, and id wonder if I did the right thing... not so much praying to God for the forgiveness of sin, as the hoping I did right by the person... I know its circular. I can't explain it well.
My statement about right and moral came from my own thought. Nothing of what you mentioned. I meant that if doing this damned me to hell, then I probably belong there, because that is who I am.
I was raised in the Catholic faith... now Protestant... but I've always held hard on the saying before receiving the eucharist "Lord i am not worthy to receive You, but only say the word and i shall be healed"
So my pray for forgiveness probably reflects the human doubt I would have the rest of my life of whether I did the right thing, even though I think it is under the circumstances.
Its circular only in it builds the right stuff in my book. I strongly sense that THAT kind of prayer is the key to many things. It is the doubt in it that illuminates a kind of inborn uncertainty/humility (being the opposite of certainty/arrogance) that I believe would be understood and "forgiven" by God or the creator or the universe in the same way you just suggested yourself, Starman. I would go further even and say that our personal acknowledgement of our error-prone humanity and a realization that we come with a short-lived, sometimes self-centered and clearly limited point of view should also keep us humble. If not, then we get experiences that attempt to teach us that, again and again. Humility like that goes a long way to preventing us from doing the really destructive things to each other and prayer could and should be helping us with that. The most powerful prayer I know is the one that pertains to me and what I am doing-- my hope that my actions be correct and if not, my willingness to be corrected about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kp2171
So with that said, here is the kitten story with a mild caution that my uncertainty (vulnerability) in it remains as it ever was so on hearing this, could you please take it easy on me? I know I will answer to my creator for this, I knew it going in even.
I was in early recovery and getting many sudden awarenesses about spiritual things when I visited friends who were "still in the lifestyle of using" (I had yet to lose those kinds of friends). They were aware of my status and gracious enough not to drink or drug in front of me but I could see (as anyone in recovery who mingles with the old ways often sees) they still operated in all that poor judgement that comes with using (we called it stinking thinking in the AA rooms). I was uncomfortable all through dinner, and in turn was making them uncomfortable too, so I was plotting a fast get away afterwards.
After dinner he put his plate on the floor for the dog and we all got up to move to the livingroom. Apparently the newly acquired kitten wanted some and when the dog saw competition, he attacked it and ripped out most of its underbelly. I got up to go to the bathroom and stumbled upon the mangled kitten struggling in the hallway and screamed or something that made everyone come running. We all stood there -- you know how those moments are -- time like molasses and dead silence. Awful awful awful.
I don't know what prompted this but I noticed the dog nearly finished with the plate off in the diningroom and became afraid it would come for the kitten so I dashed to the kitchen and grabbed a kitchen towel and picked up the kitten and rushed outside. Not much thought in it, I can tell you other than I felt afraid of the dog now and went outside for my own protection. It had thoroughly creeped me out that it did that to the kitten without making a sound-- I can recall being shocked over that part of it too.
Once outside, I became aware of the poor thing convulsing in my hands under the thin towel. The site of it on the floor was still flashing before my eyes and I felt such profound sadness. I suddenly saw a bucket of water sitting leftover from the car in the driveway being washed and without hesitation and almost no thought at all, I stuffed it in the bucket. I was shocked again when I felt how hard it fought and had an almost unbearable moment of doubt, but I looked at the site in my memory and realised it was missing too much from the dog bite to live and so I persevered as I prayed something that was like Oh God over and over, too stunned for much else.
After it was over, I laid it still wrapped in the towel on the hood of the car, pointed to it and mumbled my apologies to them as they finally came out and I left. I was very upset for some days afterwards. Prayed and reviewed it both a lot. Later I ran into my friends who made no mention about the kitten but I could see the gulf between us (mostly over our "lifestyle" I believe) had grown even wider. I asked about the kitten and he awkwardly almost sheepishly confirmed (to my relief) that they felt I had done the right thing.
I can report that some of it felt like "not me" but that may have been the shock to it too.
If its wrong, I am willing to "pay" for it. I am not sorry in the least bit for how it ended that kitten's suffering. I am just not absolutely positively certain it was the right thing to this day, which is why I posted what I did here initially. It just happened as a series of fast moving events... is how it seems to me.
It would be an honor to respect the last wish or wishes of the dying, and the dead. If suddenly tossed into a combat situation, I would adhere to what they requested ONLY if they weren't spacey, had no chance of recovery, and so on.
It is sad when one sees someone... that... you care in so much pain mentally and physically... the case of Euthanasia advocates stress the cases of unbearable pain as reasons for euthanasia... the right to die... some may feel that this is their life and they stress the point of my life and... that they need not live a life in trouble pain... all we as humans can do is to encourage life at all cost... unfortunately... the cost means financial responsibility... life would not be much of a battle... if the issues of saving a life had nothing to do with finances... are the issue of this person financial?. are you looking for issues concerned with euthanasia? There is a site that I viewed seemed to very informative... if your issues are on the right of the human to make a decision to die with no assistance... dignity check this out... on the issues of should you pray for someone in need... yes... pray
http://www.euthanasia.com/reasonsforeuthanasia.html
Tough one, but my feeling is that if a pistol or suitable club were handy I'd give them the peace they deserve.
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Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow
I agree that prayer is a demonstration of humility and helps us to avoid arrogance. I also agree that it is appropriate if one is about or has taken a life in such a way.
Thanks for sharing the experience.Quote:
If its wrong, I am willing to "pay" for it. I am not sorry in the least bit for how it ended that kitten's suffering. I am just not absolutely positively certain it was the right thing to this day, which is why I posted what I did here initially. It just happened as a series of fast moving events... is how it seems to me.
I don't think any payment whatsoever is required.
Luke 14:5
Please pardon me for answering a question with another question but, what excactly would praying accomplish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
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Originally Posted by godiva
It makes "true believers" convince themselves they did something... :eek:
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