Here's my situation... in two parts.

One, I have 200A service to my house and a 150A main (basement) panel service. Due to length and location (unfinished portion of my basement) Is it acceptable to feed a second service panel from the outside meter box with a 50A breaker before the second panel. This would be used to wire the lights/etc for 2 bedrooms, an office and a bathroom only...

Two - and more importantly. I recently acquired a sauna heater for free. It is a Finnish electric model. The diagram makes absolutely no sense and shows how to wire for 220v or 380v. Regardless, its not labelled at the contacts and I couldn't read it if I wanted to.:cool: I wired in a 30A 220v breaker with 6/3 to a 60A rated spa switch (so I wouldn't be using the breaker to turn it on and off) and 8/3 down to the heater. The person I had helping me wired the neutral and ground together at the heater. Now, If I'm not mistaken, the reason you separate the two at the sub-panels (my main panel is separate as well as all sub panels I added in the garage etc) would be to prevent current from flowing across the ground if the neutral is lost or something like that. Now, with the two tied at the sauna, doesn't that mean if anything in my house were to short out in such a way to lose the neutral that the power would feed through the sauna ground back to the neutral and potentially cause a fire?:confused:

I would like to say that it should be wired similar to a 12/2 220v outlet where just because I used 8/3 doesn't mean I should connect the neutral at all... In my opinion if I understand correctly, I should have run an 8/2 line instead. Am I correct or is there something I'm missing? I would just like to be sure this will be safe from all aspects as well as up to code.

Thank you in advance

Is there a panel ready to accept breakers at the meter?
Why would you think you have a 200 amp service, but the panel is 150 amp?

The neutral and ground CANNOT be connected at the end of a branch circuit.

Does the sauna need a neutral?

A 30 Amp Cb may not be large enough, are you sure a 30 A CB is the right size?

Even thou the sauna is Finnish, Ii am sure there is a rep or dealer in the USA you can get info from.

I am going off the inspectors report for what is wired to the house. While he was very thorough, the feed to the home is buried. How would I go about confirming the load capacity of the home? I would assume that if it is indeed 150A, adding the additional breaker, while functional, would be a no-no. I do not see a breaker beyond that unless its in the meter box (which I can't get in to without breaking the seal lock).

Thank you for confirming the common/ground issue. I had already disconnected it, but wanted to be sure. I know code has changed since the heater was manufactured, and I will try to locate a dealer, but if the appliance is wired without a neutral, is that out of code these days?

As for the 30A cb. The guy I received the heater from was the original purchaser (albeit 20 yrs ago), and I would be inclined to believe him. It was wired with 8 ga line for the last 20 years with no sign of problems (I disconnected all the lines). He states it runs ~27A at max capacity. While that's over the nominal load of an 8 ga line, I plan to only run two of the three filaments. I don't know that they are all of the same capacity; however, I would assume this would bring the consistent load well below the capacity of the 30A breaker.

UPDATE: I called the power company and they confirmed I have 200A service to my home... So I should be golden concerning the sub-panel.

I doubt the utility knows what size service entrance equipment and system you have, ie; the meter, conductors, etc.

What size are these you have?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tkrussell

I doubt the utility knows what size service entrance equipment and system you have, ie; the meter, conductors, etc.

What size are these you have?

---

I can't get to the meter side to confirm the size of the incoming feed line, and I will have to look again to the line bridging the meter to the breaker side of the outside panel...

I can't say for sure, but the power company confirmed the service capacity is 200A/220v. Are you saying it's possible that the meter panel would not be to the same capacity of the incoming service and that's why they only ran a 150A line into the home? The panel is of the two door, one panel design, so if the feed is 200A, wouldn't it be out of code when built/installed in the first place?

I've already added the 6/3 40A line parallel to the 150A main, connected to the sub panel in the basement (not live, or connected beyond the sub panel yet). The second line is completely separate from the main 150A branch panel) If this could be wrong, I will have no issue correcting it. Although the meter panel has a large capacity for breakers, I don't know what the load rating is.

Also, the meter was swapped out for a nifty digital one a few months back. Would they not install a mater that would handle the load of the service?:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Is there a panel ready to accept breakers at the meter?
Why would you think you have a 200 amp service, but the panel is 150 amp?

The neutral and ground CANNOT be connected at the end of a branch circuit.

Does the sauna need a neutral?

A 30 Amp Cb may not be large enough, are you sure a 30 A CB is the right size?

Even thou the sauna is Finnish, Ii am sure there is a rep or dealer in the USA you can get info from.

---

I may have explained incorrectly, so to clarify...

Service to the home - 200A as confirmed by the utility.
Service/Meter Panel - Unknown max load capacity
Breaker 1 - 150A to my main basement panel (Panel 1)
Breaker 2 - 40A to what I'll call the sub-panel (Panel 2), which is run in parallel to the 150, taken from the meter to panel 2 (not drawing load from panel one)

Sauna does not need a neutral, and 30A will be enough. (I have yet to test, but nonetheless)

Let's try this, take some photos, general and closeup of meter, cable anything for us to review.

TK,

For the benefit of my continuing education.

Could this be a "pass through meter" that is supplying 150 Amp to the main service panel in the basement and 40 Amp to the sauna?

That's the only way I can visualize the description he has given. One meter to record the total usage.

2 Feeds, One to the Service Panel and One to Sauna Panel. (This bothers me because I believe that the panels have to be located as close to the Service Entry Point as possible, unless you meet the code to properly run a feeder to a separate panel?)

Beats me what is there, hence my request for photos.

Hey, it's getting very wet here in Va. Beach. Does anybody know a guy named "Noah", I want to borrow his Ark. If he's not using it at the moment.

Our canal off the back yard is now at "Sea" dimensions. It's starting to slowly climb the hill. My neighbor's back yard is under standing water, I'm just a touch higher then she is.

Be careful and stay safe, Don, you got a heck of a storm on your doorstep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Let's try this, take some photos, general and closeup of meter, cable anything for us to review.

---

I'll take some photos tonight! Thanks!

The pics of what I've done can be downloaded here:
http://seths.homelinux.com/elec.zip
It's a 33M zip file with all the pics...

After I took the pics, I just realized that the 150 quad service disconnect is feeding the main line and the second box I added, so even though I have a 200A service, it's still at 150A (not that I'll even come close with all cfl's and such)

The other thing I question is why it would state that a 100A breaker can be in the lowest position when the service disconnect is so obviously not.

Anyway, take a look at the pics and let me know your opinion if my setup is correct and to code.

Thank you!!

Seth,

Good afternoon from the land down under the water (glug -glug).

I just treied to acess your photos and I cannot get to them.

Can you try to append them to this item by using the "Advanced" tab at the bottom of the screen?

I have looked at all the photos. Great job. Photos help so much.

This is a 150 amp service, period.

I do not care what the utility says you have.

The 150 amp breaker is the Main Disconnect, the entire meter and panel is rated 150 Amp by virtue of the factory installed 150 Amp main Breaker, and the datasheet for the unit, see attached documents.

The feeders that enter the bottom of the meter may be rated 200 Amp, cannot see to confirm or deny, but does not matter, it is a 150 amp service.

Shame if the service feeders are 200 amp rated, as the installer limited the service to 150 amp by using this meter/panel combo, and is wasting the capacity of the feeders, if they are rated 200 Amp.

Couple of other comments regarding the Image "PLL to the main":

The black Romex cable should be supported with the metal conduit strap, that strap is not rated or listed for supporting NM-B cable (AKA Romex)

Wire Tie (TY-Rap) supporting the SE cable, not rated to support any cable.

Is that PEX plumbing pipe being used as a sleeve for Romex cable? If it is, then, now I have seen everything.

This one photo is a good example of several code violations, such as poor workmanship and improper use of materials.

The 2 pole 50 Amp Cb for the subpanel is sharing the 150 Amp main Breaker AND whatever the Main is supplying via the feeders connected to the lugs at the bottom of the panel, apparently the panel in the home.

Minor nit-picking, but for the benefit of other readers, and since the photo "Main Entering home" is provided, the Romex cable entering the PVC conduit needs to be connected to the conduit using a coupling and cable connector, not just enter the conduit in that fashion.

So, where do we go from here?

The black Romex cable should be supported with the metal conduit strap, that strap is not rated or listed for supporting NM-B cable (AKA Romex)

No problem, I can go get conduit strap, although I would have to then question why the zip ties on the main cable next to it were used along with what looks to be a strip of tin cut from who knows what further down the line...

Wire Tie (TY-Rap) supporting the SE cable, not rated to support any cable.

Understood. As with the NM-B, this is an easy fix.

Is that PEX plumbing pipe being used as a sleeve for Romex cable? If it is, then, now I have seen everything.

Which photo are you referring to? The "PLL to the main" shows 3 lines: 1 white water line which happens to be above the electrical in this photo, 1 Black NM-B line running the second panel, and 1 fat grey cable which feeds the existing main panel.

This one photo is a good example of several code violations, such as poor workmanship and improper use of materials.

Please point out any violations you can confirm. Like I said, I will correct whatever needs to be done. The conduit outside is from the middle of the electrical department... not that it means anything, but I fail to see why it would be stocked and sold for such a purpose (labelled as such) yet not be correct.

The 2 pole 50 Amp Cb for the subpanel is sharing the 150 Amp main Breaker AND whatever the Main is supplying via the feeders connected to the lugs at the bottom of the panel, apparently the panel in the home.

The main is the 150A line running below (gray) the NM-B in the PLL to main photo. The only real question about that is does this present a problem other than the fact that if I happen to pull more than 50A at the second and more than 100A at the first panel, it will blow the service disconnect and down the entire home?

Minor nit-picking, but for the benefit of other readers, and since the photo "Main Entering home" is provided, the Romex cable entering the PVC conduit needs to be connected to the conduit using a coupling and cable connector, not just enter the conduit in that fashion.

Is there an official name for this coupler? I can go pick one up and (hopefully) attach it to what's installed without redoing the entire line...

It looks like the PEX has a cable at the 90 deg junction, but I did reserve judgment as it is difficult to see exactly. Now that I zoomed in I can see, just barely, the brass fitting.

Ok so there are only two violations in the PLL photo, but both cables are probably supported using the same metal condut straps and tyraps the entire length.

There is no add on part to correct the Romex cable entering the PVC conduit. A PVC female adapter needs to be installed on the end of the PVC conduit, and a two screw NM cable connector threaded into the FA would be the method of connecting the cable to the conduit, but to do this, the cable needs to be pulled out of the PVC and then re-inserted into the connector.

I don't see the tin your referring to. Otherwise I think I touched on all of your comments, if not get back with what I may have missed.

Ty-raps can be used to bundle cables, but not support cables.

You are correct, adding the 50 amp subpanel may overload the 150 amp main, depending on the load the 150 amp CB supplies.

I do not understand why this meter/panel was used, if there is a panel in the home.

I used the outdoor panel to run the new line because I needed two spots for the sauna cb, two for the garage cb with only one spot available. It was simple to add to the meter panel rather than try to open 5 spots in the main. Although after changing the PVC, I think I'll feel differently, but I'll chalk this up to a learning experience.

(bought a lathe that overloaded the existing 15A outlet/cb, so while running a new outlet with 20A, why not make it a 220v. Mind you that is going into a small cb box, not just branching at an outlet (I may be out of code, but not stupid))

Are there any other code violations in any of the photos that should be corrected? I'd like to think what I've done, while in violation, is not an imminent hazard... Although there's a reason for most code, even if not apparent to me.

I really appreciate your help!

Off to pull the PVC I go...