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It seems there might be one born every minute in the middle east
Tunnel scam targets dirt-poor Palestinians - CNN.com

Now this I can't quite understand. Why would you invest in a tunnel when the Israeli have a habit of bombing them or peace might breakout and you are out of business? What this tells you first and foremost is that the Gazians or Palestinians don't have any hope peace will break out

It really is sad.The Palestinian leadership has been given a large fortune of western and Arab capital to invest in the infrastructure ,and they squandered it enriching themselves, and to keep war against Israel supplied .

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

What this tells you first and foremost is that the Gazians or Palistinians don't have any hope peace will break out

In Israel, there is a very strong and vocal "Peace Now" movement. In the USA, there is a very strong and vocal "Peace Now" movement. In fact, in just about every industrialized country in the world there are very strong and vocal "Peace Now" movements. Canada, the UK, France, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. all have "Peace Now" movements. Even many Arab countries have "Peace Now" movements.

Has anyone ever seen a Palestinian "Peace Now" organization or movement?

It's not that the Palestinians don't expect peace, Clete. It's that they DON'T WANT PEACE. It is not something they desire.

They want 'revenge' for every real or imagined slight they feel they have suffered. They want to take over all the land of Israel, whether it is rightfully theirs or not. They want to kill Jews in job lots. They do not want peace.

Oh, there may be individual Palestinians who would like peace. In fact, I know for a fact that there are such, having met some. (The few Palestinians who want peace tend to be members of Israeli Peace Now organizations... and they are very small in number.) But AS A NATIONAL GROUP they don't desire peace. It isn't something their leaders are trying to achieve. It isn't something they teach their children to desire. It isn't part of their national makeup.

I'm quite sure that you will argue with me on this point. That's fine, feel free. All I am really doing is observing the actions of the Palestinians and drawing conclusions. The conclusions you draw may be very different ones. I have my experiences with Palestinians, you have yours.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

It's not that the Palestinians don't expect peace, Clete. It's that they DON'T WANT PEACE. It is not something they desire.

I'm quite sure that you will argue with me on this point. That's fine, feel free. All I am really doing is observing the actions of the Palestinians and drawing conclusions. The conclusions you draw may be very different ones. I have my experiences with Palestinians, you have yours.

Elliot

Actually Elliot I have no direct experience of the Palestinians. What I do know is that they want the land they once used to own back. It seems they have no concept of being a conquered people. I think we all understand that many left their land freely at the time of the Arab-Israeli war in anticipation of being able to return and they wound up on the wrong side of history. Others found themselves on the wrong side of the border after the 1967 conflict. I don't doubt than many Palestinians want peace but as they don't know how to compromise it is elusive. They have been radicalised by Muslim extremists. They have suffered as much from corrupt leadership as they have from their own actions. The only real solution is for an intregated state In Israel but given the political difficulties I can't see that happening

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Actually Elliot I have no direct experience of the Palistinians. What I do know is that they want the land they once used to own back. It seems they have no concept of being a conquered people. I think we all understand that many left their land freely at the time of the Arab-Israeli war in anticipation of being able to return and they wound up on the wrong side of history. Others found themselves on the wrong side of the border after the 1967 conflict. I don't doubt than many Palistinians want peace but as they don't know how to compromise it is elusive. They have been radicalised by Muslim extremists. They have suffered as much from corrupt leadership as they have from their own actions. The only real solution is for an intregated state In Israel but given the political difficulties I can't see that happening

That's actually a fairly decent assessment. Kudos.

Elliot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

That's actually a fairly decent assessment. Kudos.

Elliot

Yes Elliot I'm actually a fairly reasonable fellow, but understanding the history of a problem doesn't produce anything. How do you deradicalise a people? This has been the problem in so many conflicts particularly those with a generational dimension. I know the conventional wisdom is to have a military victory over the radicals but that doesn't work it just assures you you will fight the same battle again. These people need resettlement but no one wants them. What do you think it does for them when Israeli build settlements in the west bank and they are cooped up in a pocket hankerchief?

Israel has been fighting Philistines (Palestinians) (off and on) since the days of Joshua.

Peace there will not happen until the Prince of Peace returns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by galveston

Israel has been fighting Philistines (Palestinians) (off and on) since the days of Joshua.

Peace there will not happen until the Prince of Peace returns.

The Philistines and the Palestinians are not the same people. The Palestinians are arabs, left overs from the days of the expansion of Islam out of Arabia.
If you want to fight Philistines go to Lebanon, the people (Phonecians) there might have some kinship to the Philistines although again the possibility is they are arab.

What we have is two introduced peoples fighting over the same patch of land and trying to prove who was there first. Some have a legal right, some have a hereditary right, some have it by right of conquest. I think the whole thing is simple, the Israeli's conquered it and now they have a responsibility to look after the people. How they accomplish that is a horse of a different colour

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

It seems they have no concept of being a conquered people.

Hello clete:

Bingo! The Wolverine should understand this concept. I conquer him all the time, yet it eternally escapes him.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello clete:

Bingo! The Wolverine should understand this concept. I conquer him all the time, yet it eternally escapes him.

excon

Well ex it's a racial traint, they didn't accept the Romans either, so you are in good company, and of course, the Arabs gave up, not enough of them apparently.