Hi all:

I found an interesting letter while stumbling online, and I wanted to hear other people's thoughts about it. Here is the link:

Why Can't I Own a Canadian?

I know many people will pick out of the old testament, that some things are still relevant today and others are not. Jesus came to break down the barriers of the Law and the requirements it included.

What do you think? Is it all right to say that homosexuals are wrong because of that verse in Leviticus, or not? I feel like we have to take every other law with it too.

I'm kind of confused by the whole topic. Is the old testament relavent? Or is it now abolished because of Jesus?

Let's discuss it! :p

The LAW is abolished in Jesus Christ.

However, if you read the New Testament and see what Jesus taught, and what the Apostles taught, you will find a stricter code than under the OT law.

The OT law only judges actions, whereas NT teaching also judges motives

You mention homosexuals. Read Paul's letter to the Romans, first chapter. He is quite clear on this subject. That is not the only place in the NT either.

Under OT law, murder is a crime. In the NT, hatred is declared to be the same as murder, and lust is the same as adultery.

The Old Testament is relevant as an example, but the Law as set out in the Old Testament is not relevant to Christians. Christians place their faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice and have not need to strive to fulfill the Law. Our offense against the Law is covered by the blood of Jesus where under the Law it could only be covered by the blood of dead animals

The article you refer to is mockery, even though there may be some truth in the questions, The film clip is much better than the article but the Law after all was about obedience and in many instances sound public health and common sense in a community with no infurstructure and no long term social compact. They needed to be taught from basics. What they ultimately did was turn this into a set of regulations that no one could follow in full and certainly not to the spirit.

It still comes down to obedience today, if you walk according to the Spirit you will not do these things even though you don't need to make a conscious effort to know and understand the Law.

So when someone tells you they can be homosexual and a Christian too, don't tell them they are condemned, tell them they need to be born again.

The New Testament tells us that those who try to fulfill any part of the Law fro righteousness sake must fulfill it all for they are trying to do the job Christ has already completed. It is a finished work

The same part of Leviticus that condemns homosexuality also condemns wearing clothes made of more than one kind of fabric. I've never understood why so many Christians think homosexuality is an abomination, but yet no one ever tells me I'm going to hell because my shirt is 60% cotton and 40% polyester. Paul and the Apostles? Is what they say really to be ranked on the same level as what Jesus said? Personally, I would think not.

Jesus did come to break down the Law and establish a new one, you're right about that. But a lot of Christians don't seem to understand what the new law is. Exhibit A: look at how many Christians act hatefully towards homosexuals--having hateful attitudes towards them in private, if nothing else--even though Jesus explicitly tells us that we're supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves. He doesn't say "love everybody, oh, except for people that aren't Christians, and terrorists, and those yucky homosexuals." He just says to love everybody. End of story. And that's the only law we have to worry about following, not OT law. (Which isn't to say that the OT isn't still relevant, for history if nothing else, but it's not something we should be looking to as the final definitive guide on how to live our lives.)

* Disclaimer: I am not a Biblical expert and everything I just said could be complete BS. I'm just stating it the way I see it. But I could be wrong (and often am).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashriel

Hi all:

I found an interesting letter while stumbling online, and I wanted to hear other people's thoughts about it. Here is the link:

Why Can't I Own a Canadian?

I know many people will pick and choose out of the old testament, that some things are still relevant today and others are not. Jesus came to break down the barriers of the Law and the requirements it included.

What do you think? Is it alright to say that homosexuals are wrong because of that verse in Leviticus, or not? I feel like we have to take every other law with it too.

I'm kind of confused by the whole topic. Is the old testament relavent? Or is it now abolished because of Jesus?

Let's discuss it! :p

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The type of laws referred to in "Why Can't I Own a Canadian" come from what could be called, "Early Christian Ethics" ( for the want of a better name). The emphasize the importance of The Ten Commandments and ritualistic practices similar to the example you have given. These teachings, practices and laws were seen as not negotiable because they come directly from God.

The next period can be roughly be regarded as,"Later Christian Ethics" ( again for the want of a better name). This period can be seen as a time when Christian ethics came into contact with such things as Neo-Platonism, Protestant Reformation and a great deal of other conflict between church and the state. (A lot of history in that paragraph)

Unlike the, "Early Christian Ethics" period religion became the subject matter of philosophy and therefore was the subject of wide ranging debate in matters of theology, ethics, the relationship between the church and the state.

Today we live in a secular state and people can choose what ever religious practices we like. But this is provided these practices don't go against secular law. For example, it is against the law to burn something at the alter if there is a total fire ban in place. You cannot own a Canadian because slavery is against secular law.

Today scientific based ethics is competing with religious ethics which further complicates the problem. Christian ethics could be summarized as God giving us certain rules of moral conduct and we should do our best to follow these rules. However, in the reality of the modern world this is not easy especially when different religious groups, not so much disagree on religious theory, but disagree as to the application of general ethical principles in day to day life.

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Originally Posted by WiseOldUnicorn

The same part of Leviticus that condemns homosexuality also condemns wearing clothes made of more than one kind of fabric. I've never understood why so many Christians think homosexuality is an abomination, but yet no one ever tells me I'm going to hell because my shirt is 60% cotton and 40% polyester. Paul and the Apostles? Is what they say really to be ranked on the same level as what Jesus said? Personally, I would think not.

Jesus did come to break down the Law and establish a new one, you're right about that. But a lot of Christians don't seem to understand what the new law is. Exhibit A: look at how many Christians act hatefully towards homosexuals--having hateful attitudes towards them in private, if nothing else--even though Jesus explicitly tells us that we're supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves. He doesn't say "love everybody, oh, except for people that aren't Christians, and terrorists, and those yucky homosexuals." He just says to love everybody. End of story. And that's the only law we have to worry about following, not OT law. (Which isn't to say that the OT isn't still relevant, for history if nothing else, but it's not something we should be looking to as the final definitive guide on how to live our lives.)

* Disclaimer: I am not a Biblical expert and everything I just said could be complete BS. I'm just stating it the way I see it. But I could be wrong (and often am).

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The prohibition of wearing of mixed materials, sowing mixed seed, allowing cattle to mix breeds; these were all to teach Israel the concept of purity, especially racial purity. That was very important, as it was through this family that Messiah was to come. God never gives rules without reason.

As to love, Biblically speaking, love is ACTION not FEELING.

Love your enemies has nothing to do with feeling. It means we are to treat that enemy as well as he will allow us to. Feed him if he is hungry, etc.

It also means that if we have this kind of love, we will tell people the truth, even if they don't want to hear it, because their eternal destiny may depend on whether we do so or not.

We can't forget what scripture says about walking in the spirit. This would be an example for us being able and willing to follow Christ.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Remember the law is the school master that brings people to Christ.. It does not just disappear once you are born again in Christ.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


The History for the Jews to acknowledge and realize was the promises God spoke.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Those who are circumcised of the heart (Jere 4:4) to the Lord.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

~in Christ

Edit:

Think of this, righteousness does not come by the law. But righteousness did come through Christ Jesus. We can live in newness of life through Christ and there is no other way. We follow Christ by our faith in HIM, and we do works of the law because of our faith in following Him. That is the Law of Faith that we boast. Hear HIS Voice and follow.

Jesus told s rt follow he law and prayed that we would.
It also means to understand it as irt was given way back hen under the conditions and culture of that time.
So I do believe that we should do as Jesus instruct and keep in mind that He is the fulfillment of the law and what that means.
It is a big part of His salvtion mission.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

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Originally Posted by arcura

So I do believe that we should do as Jesus instruct and keep in mind that He is the fulfillment of the law and what that means.
It is a big part of His salvtion mission.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

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As did Jesus and John the Baptist, both suffered to fulfil righteousness in baptism.

We do follow Christ in baptism.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Note:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The royal law according to scripture is LOVE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashriel

Hi all:

I found an interesting letter while stumbling online, and I wanted to hear other people's thoughts about it. Here is the link:

Why Can't I Own a Canadian?

I know many people will pick and choose out of the old testament, that some things are still relevant today and others are not. Jesus came to break down the barriers of the Law and the requirements it included.

What do you think? Is it alright to say that homosexuals are wrong because of that verse in Leviticus, or not? I feel like we have to take every other law with it too.

I'm kind of confused by the whole topic. Is the old testament relavent? Or is it now abolished because of Jesus?

Let's discuss it! :p

---

In my humble opinion - and I can naturally be wrong - I, as a RCC consider the O.T. as part of the Scriptures and therefore important. However, the N.T. the basic part of it are the Gospels, or Jesus' Word - overwites the O.T.

The O.T. contains a number of points and subjects that are to be taken considering the age when they were written and whom they were written for. The ignorant darkness that in multitude of aspects surrounded mankind 2 or 3000 years before Christ has to be taken into account when we read the O.T. books.

On the other hand, in the N.T. Jesus leaves with us a very simple set of rules to abide by and He clearly points out that to follow them is to follow the path leaving to His Kingdom.

In the O.T. we can find numerous fragments where violence is sort of preached, like the phrase "eye for an eye" (Leviticus 24:19–21, Exodus 21:22–25, and Deuteronomy 19:21).

In the N.T. Jesus is preaching to love and forgive our enemies, as He did when dying in the Cross.

I would say that this message reflects more -as far as I'm concerned- what GOD is like and why GOD sent ITS SON TO SAVE US.

Don't you think so?

Gromitt82 :)

Gromitt82,
Yes. I think so.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Gromitt82,
Yes. I think so.
Fred

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So do I, Fred, so do I!

Gromitt82

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

So I do believe that we should do as Jesus instruct and keep in mind that He is the fulfillment of the law and what that means.
It is a big part of His salvtion mission.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

---

Keep in mind

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Christ never gave us a license to sin, nor does Christ want us to walk with those that do sin.


1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Keep in mind

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Christ never gave us a license to sin, nor does Christ want us to walk with those that do sin.


1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

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Christ never gave us a license to sin, nor does Christ want us to walk with those that do sin.
And yet WE ALL CONSTANTLY SIN! Shame on us!

Gromitt82

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

Christ never gave us a license to sin, nor does Christ want us to walk with those that do sin.
And yet WE ALL CONSTANTLY SIN!! Shame on us!

Gromitt82

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Not true those that walk in the spirit do not sin

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

~in Christ

It is POSSIBLE for a Christian to sin, BUT he will NOT live a sinful life-style.

We don't have to sin every day.

Christians are delivered from the PENALTY and POWER of sin.

galveston,
That's true.
If the Christian follows the rules set by Jesus.
A faith without works is dead.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

It is POSSIBLE for a Christian to sin, BUT he will NOT live a sinful life-style.

We don't have to sin every day.

Christians are delivered from the PENALTY and POWER of sin.

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We must walk having the spirit of truth within us.


1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as HE is righteous.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:10 "In this" the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


REPENT and sin no more. Bearing your cross..


Pray Abba, crying to be all He created you to be. And live so that HIS will is done here on earth as it is in heaven. ASk that OUR Father will bless you with strength and courage. And that evil bows down, and flees from you forever and ever, so that no evil is done by you. In Jesus Name we ask and do believe.

John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Amen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Not true those that walk in the spirit do not sin

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

~in Christ

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Of course, " those that walk in the spirit do not sin", BUT can you point out many that walk in th spirit ALL THE TIME?

ONLY BY CONSTANTLY AND PERMANENTLY FIGHTING OUR TEMPTATIONS AND GETTING UP EACH TIME WE FALL can we walk in the spirit as you say. But our path is full of obstacles which we overcome every day.

Jesus Christ died in the Cross and one of the phrases He said while dying there was "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)

This few words are reminding us we must love our enemies. Do we, always? I must confess that I don't. And as long as I don't I'm in sin...

Gromitt82

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

Of course, " those that walk in the spirit do not sin", BUT can you point out many that walk in th spirit ALL THE TIME?

Gromitt82

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When in the spirit, we are sanctified in Christ. Therefore we abide in Christ, and Christ dwells within us. (John 15:4 John 15:7)




John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Once dead to sin with Christ blood and buried with Christ by baptism water, we are born of God. We follow Christ in HIS righteousness. We then glorify Christ and all He has done for us. If you eat and drink of the body and blood of Christ, we do it in remembrance of all He has done. The once and for all offering that has sanctified us. (Hebrew 10:10)



It is the fulfillment of all that Christ suffered for us in fulfillment of the scripture.

John 19:34-35 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.



~in Christ