Ask Me Help Desk - Viable Seeds

Helllo

I have saved up my chili seeds all year, air dried them and kept them in the fridge to slow the metabolic rate

I have noticed that some seeds I have used before germinate quicker than others, and the only difference is how long the seed has been in the fridge

Is there a point where the seed reaches its ideal state and therefore, when I am ready to seed it will germinate quicker than one that hasn't been in the cool for as long?

If so why?

Hi! phlanx

Borrowed from: chile pepper seed saving
"To maintain seed viability, they should be stored in a cool, dark, dry place preferably between 35-50°F ~ 1.6-10°C. One preferred method is to store seeds in clearly labelled water tight plastic envelopes in a Tupperware container at the bottom of the fridge. The cool, dark conditions mimic nature as the metabolism of the seeds slows down. Again, ensure seeds are sufficiently dried before storing them in the freezer as excess water/moisture can rupture the cell walls and your seeds will die!"

Moisture content should be approximately 8%, as a rule of thumb, seeds should break, not bend as you test them.

K

Cheers KUXj ,

This however I understand, but I was wondering of anyone knew of what nature does during this cycle

During winter, the temp drops and the seeds hibernate, this process occurs over Nov - Feb naturally

However, I am not leaving them long in the fridge, and I was wondering if there was a trigger within the DNA of the seed that told it is now in hibernation, so when it warms up with a little moisture it is now time to germinate

If this process does occur, is it simply the process of dropping the temp on the seed or the duration of time at that temp?

Now that you've clarified your question, and I see from what direction your coming from, it will take a while longer to verify your theory, and a good one it is. One that I have no trouble accepting.

But we need qualitative assurance that, that, is actually happening. Unfortunately I'm going out to do chores now, and most likely will not be able to post back until later this evening. Say 2 or 3 am your time.

Cheers

K

No problem, K

I have been trying to find out myself from the internet and can't find it anywhere

I have spoken to a friend who manipulates plant dna - still no idea

The question partly came about from reading an article about Kew Gardens in England, they have achieved storing 10% of the worlds seeds, and they store them at -270c

Above this they state there is still metabolic reaction occurring, and that got me thinking as to why some seeds I have planted, have germinated quicker than others, while still being the same species and same environment

Anyway, thanks for helping :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phlanx

No problem, K

I have been trying to find out myself from the internet and can't find it anywhere

I have spoken to a friend who manipulates plant dna - still no idea

The question partly came about from reading an article about Kew Gardens in England, they have achieved storing 10% of the worlds seeds, and they store them at -270c

Above this they state there is still metabolic reaction occurring, and that got me thinking as to why some seeds I have planted, have germinated quicker than others, while still being the same species and same environment

Anyway, thanks for helping :)

Hi! Phlanx, your welcome.

The Kew is an excellent starting source for study material..
Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew - Home Page

Try thinking about your question this way...

After seed has been prepared for storage it is usually placed in a cool, dark environment, this accomplishes two things:
1.) It is common knowledge that cold slows down the metabolic rate of organic material, which also includes the seeds genome.
Freezing seed overwinter also has a bearing on destroying fungal and parasitic diseases.

2.) Darkness keeps the genetic switch for growth turned off.

So these two factors, and your conscientious selection of seed from your garden is what determines your success rate of propagation.

Even though you state:

Quote:

while still being the same species and same environment

Unbeknownst to you, and this is very easy to do in an non-laboratory setting, you may be introducing variants in the seed selection, and storage process.
It is physically impossible for the average homeowner to watch over his or her dominion 24/7 to maintain consistency in the growing process.

Do any of your plants show any signs of stress or disease?
Are your tools, hands, and work area disinfected/kept sterile during the seed selection, and storage process?
Once the seeds are prepared, are there any inconsistencies In the storage process? The simple act of the light turning on when you open the refrigerator door is enough to disrupt the process. Dark means dark.
Any variation in temperature is a disruption, once the temp has been reached it should be maintained or inconsistencies will emerge.

I have many sites in my chest o' marks that have conducted studies on the genetics of seed dormancy, but unfortunately chili seed genes, do not make for a good study.

The studies are conducted on variants of genomes (simple structure) that are similar to the major structural groups, and then extrapolated to a specific target group.

I offer several links pertaining to seed dormancy for your further study, and I will post back if I come across any more studies pertinent to your topic.
It is an interesting subject.

“Life is much simpler at the molecular level.”

Cheers

k

USDA study on seed dormancy showing QTLs affect on preharvest sprouting :
ARS | Publication request: Genetics of Seed Dormancy in Weedy Rice

QTL:
Quantitative trait locus - Wikipedia

The genetics of seed quality in Arabidopsis thaliana a rather large 136page report:
http://library.wur.nl/wda/dissertations/dis3525.pdf
ABRC Home Page

Arabidopsis thaliana:
Arabidopsis - Wikipedia

Links to Seeds and Plant breeding:
Seeds and Plant Breeding : Alternative Crops and Plants : Alternative Farming Systems Information Center

And going back to thechileman, see soil temperature:
chile pepper starting seeds

Morning K

Thanks for that, really appreciate it

I understand that home growing is never going to be accurate as you cannot control the environment

I will have a read of the aticules later when I have an hour

I guess what it comes down to to as you say is a veriation of preparation even though I cannot stop that, and good old fashioned mother natur producing a variation of the seeds, the thickness of the seed coat as one particular example

Thanks again K

Salvo K

Okay then - thanks for that

It is times like this I wished I had listen in school :)

From what I understand does this sound right?

The FLC controls the plants cycle, so when a tempreture dependent plant feels the cold, the FLC flow will either increase or decrease which will trigger the genes which triggers a change in the cycle of the plant, so in this case tell it to go dormant for the winter

Now this same process also effects the make up of the seed, which makes sense as the seed is nothing more than just a really tiny plant

However, the maternal plant will pass on the DNA to the seed, but then the FLC comes along and effects the gene structure

So in essence each seed or fruit can be slightly different to the next one, which enables the plant to evolve and not stay stagnant in its devolopment

Is this right - if so wow, you got to love mother nature :)

In addition

I knew that each seed would be slightly different from the next, seed coating for example is one prime reason for pregermination process

However, would you say it is the FLC that is effecting the seed genes while it grows and matures or would you say it is the FLC effecting the maternal genes which is then efefcting what part of the plants dna is dominant and therefore effect the seed

So to clarify (for myself mainly) The FLC is being effected by the environment of the plant, this in turn will always effect the certain genes in the DNA and depending on when the seeds form and mature is purely down to ultimatly the environment

Therefore, unless you can achieve the perfect state of environment there is no way you a will get a complete set of seeds that match, and even then the FLC flow will not be totally constant and therefore the natural selection of evolution is maintained

Does this make sense or am I heading off to left field?

Quote:

Okay then - thanks for that

It is times like this I wished I had listen in school :)

From what I understand does this sound right?

Your welcome.
I know, I can still picture an ol' school chum talking me outta' taking Physics and Calc. What I've learned, I've done Home School.

I would say you have a solid grasp of the material.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Something in a similar vein, that may interest you.

As plants have QTL's, and FLC's, we humans have what's called epigenomes

From post #9:
AMHD - gardening-plants/identifying-weed

If you can catch a showing of this program on our PBS somehow, watch it!
Ghost in Your Genes or see below ▼

I've always been interested in genetics, and this report is on a sub-folder our genes have, called epigenes.
I saw a showing listed, and auto-tuned it. I didn't leave for a second of the 50minutes.

I almost fell offa' the sofa when as, the research scientist was describing the impact of pest/herbicide's on the genome, they had a helio/boom sprayer coming over a ridge in a field.

Image only a representation, borrowed from this site:
BPC hearing
http://cannabisculture.com/library/i...pter-spray.jpg

If you have a podcaster that plays M4v files, copy/paste this into it. Windows Media Player might handle it to....it's a 48Mg file.
http://feeds.pbs.org/~r/pbs/wgbh/nov...pigenetics.m4v

These links should work, if not refer back to:
AMHD - gardening-plants/identifying-weed

Quote:

Does this make sense or am I heading off to left field?

Yes, It makes sense. Your heading there because you've just hit a Home Run! :eek:

K

Afternoon/Morning K

Thanks for that, I watched the program on epigenomes, found it on a BBC program from a few years ago

Totally fascinating! Just when we thought we had figured out what life is, nature comes along and states, "Nope, not yet" :)

I also find it interesting that the essence of what they state, has been around for a while

I don't know about you, but my parents said it to me, and I have said it to my kids, "You get that from your mother/father", so the basic idea has been around for awhile, just not known that it was scientific method causing this feature

I also love the idea that the nuture of your ancestor will effect the nature of the descendant which will then effect the nuture of the child, which will then effect the nature of the child's descendant - Nature and choas at its best! WOW!

So to relate this back to plants, there is no way we can get true copies and uniformity within seeds as the choas of nature will determine that it is not possible, and as much as we try to provide the right envirnment for the plant, we do not know if this will switch genes on or off in its descendants to either the detrmiment or support of the family line

I found the effects of crop spraying as not so surprising though, the effects that it causes, in my opinon can never be underestimated, and this is from nothing more than, too much of something is bad for you, and concentrated chemicals cannot be good for you - but here we have proof that the effects are not good for the human race full stop

Great advert for a clean society and not a polluting one, regardless of global warming!

Thanks for that - really appreciate it, if you can get BBC America, you might find that a series called Horizon which covered this topic as well, is one of the best informative hours you will spend