Ask Me Help Desk - Older house with NO STACK VENT

Hi everyone - we are doing a rehab of a foreclosure house - a single-story rancher style. - the house was built in 1955, it has one bathroom upstairs, and a weird "half-bath" in the basement. Copper supply lines, cast-iron drain/soil lines. (Bell & spigot? Do I remember that correctly? You pros in here will know!)

In the basement, there is a toilet (next to the workbench!) and a crude shower stall made of 2x4s and tileboard, with what looks to be a poured concrete shower pan. I am guessing these were installed when the house was built. It is still on septic, which was cleaned out a few weeks ago. We recently tied into the city water. Problem is, the basement toilet flushes very very slowly. I removed and cleaned the toilet, it as well as the drain was clogged with mud and whatever else. I snaked out both the toilet and shower lines and they both now handle the full blast of a garden hose. HOWEVER - I see NO stack vent whatsoever on this house. There are two soil stacks, the other one is on the "kitchen" side. Neither has a vent stack. What gives? Could this toilet ever have flushed properly? Maybe a chance that I didn't clean the toilet completely? I did set the bowl up and blast out the trap with hot water.

The upstairs one seems OK. Haven't tried the tub yet as we are redoing the upstairs bathroom.

I am assuming this house was plumbed to code (circa 1955) - but I have worked on much older houses that did have vents. I am scratching my head on this one, but the electrical bungles we have corrected are a lot stranger. 2-wire ungrounded UF cable to kitchen outlets. Glad I am not in the insurance biz!

Thanks so much for any help or feedback or words of encouragement!

Try this, fill a five gallon bucket with water and dump it down the toilet bowl. Let me know if it flushes down, or if it overflows the toilet.(dont dump it to quickly, just dump it fairly fast and see if it goes down.) Lee.

You say no vents. Do you mean no vents through the roof? Check the attic to see if vents terminate in the attic.

Quote:

I removed and cleaned the toilet, it as well as the drain was clogged with mud and whatever else.

This bothers me. The only way mud can get into your drainage system is if you have a opening allowing soil and dirt to enter. How that dirt got in there would be my first concern. Can you tell us a little more about this branch? Regards, Tom

I have seen vents terminated in the attic as well. If you have soil stack for the toilet, follow it up and see if you can see where the main stack ends. I was just out on another trip where they complained about slow drains and etc and looked. The vent they did have was cut (previous owner).

"What's this supposed to do Skip?" I don't know, but it looks ugly - let's just cut it out" (grin)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygirlsdad77

try this, fill a five gallon bucket with water and dump it down the toilet bowl. let me know if it flushes down, or if it overflows the toilet.(dont dump it to quickly, just dump it fairly fast and see if it goes down.) Lee.

Lee - Thanks for the reply. This is exactly what I did, as the tank is not usable yet, needs a flush kit. I filled a large bucket and dumped it quickly into the bowl. It goes down real slowly, then it gurgles at the end, almost as if water is being sucked out of the toilet's trap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkstroud

You say no vents. Do you mean no vents thru the roof? Check the attic to see if vents terminate in the attic.

Harold - Thanks for your help! I do not see any vent pipe. I am looking directly at the cast iron waste pipes in the basement, everything is exposed. There is absolutely no vertical pipe going northwards towards the roof. I remember that ah-ha moment whaen, after having looked at this, I realized just WHAT was not right. I will go over there today and check again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedball1

This bothers me. The only way mud can get into your drainage system is if you have a opening allowing soil and dirt to enter. How that dirt got in there would be my first concern. Can you tell us a little more about this branch? Regards, Tom

Good morning Tom & thanks for your help!

As for the mud and dirt, this was a foreclosure house, with the usual whacked-out things associated. Goofy homeowner add-ons (like landscaping ties all around the house with AC outlets fastened on them, a well that was basically unusable, a smell inside that would knock your socks off, new wiring with mid-air splices, etc, ungrounded Romex to kitchen outlets) and what probably happened was the toilet was used as a disposal for cleaning the basement after each major rain. Until it could not flush any more mud.

Then the super-brilliant bank had the house "winterized" - but did not turn off the well pump. I could go on and on about this whole foreclosure mess my wife and me and others we know have dealt with. Sometimes I think these lending institutions have brought on these woes themselves through gross ignorance of the practical aspects of real estate.

But I digress! The shower stall next to the toilet was clogged also with mud and pebbles. I got both cleared out to where they would handle the full discharge of the hose. I "assume" this is OK. I hope ;-)

I will try one thing on this - I will remove the bathtub trap so I have the "top" of the stack "open" and see if that helps.

*jimmy

Okay, now pull the toilet, and dump the same amount of water down the toilet drain. If water rises in the drain, you need to auger the drain. If it takes the water as fast as you can poor it, run a closet auger through the toilet, or just get a new toilet. Lack of vent on toilet in theory can cause this problem, but I've seen many old houses that didn't have a vent one, and toilets still flushed fine.

Here is my suggestion. Since you are doing a rehab on the home, tear out all of the old plumbing and install new modern up to code plumbing. Or at the very least redo plumbing so that every fixture is vented(either legally wet vented, or individually vented).

I also agree with Tom, mud in waste line is not a good sign. Hope you are correct that it was dumped down the drain. Other wise you have a serious job instore for you. Good luck on your project and please keep us posted. Lee.

[QUOTE=mygirlsdad77;2001297]okay, now pull the toilet, and dump the same amount of water down the toilet drain. If water rises in the drain, you need to auger the drain. If it takes the water as fast as you can poor it, run a closet auger through the toilet, or just get a new toilet. Lack of vent on toilet in theory can cause this problem, but I've seen many old houses that didn't have a vent one, and toilets still flushed fine.

**** Lee - Thanks for the advice!

And I am apologizing to everyone because I did in fact find the vent pipe. I feel really stupid. It is at the end of the run, by the sink. It does NOT rise straight up the soil stack like the simplified pictures show. I have been doing this long enough, I should have known esp. since we had a new roof put on and I looked at that pipe through the roof I don't know how many times.

But the toilet still flushes slowly, very slowly. Yes, with the toilet removed, the drain takes water as fast as I can run it from the hose. I will auger the toilet. As for the mud, we have two theories - 1) we suspect the former "owner" knew foreclosure was at hand, and since they were an innocent victim, and it was through no fault of their own that they were unable to make payments, they did a bit of "sabotage". 2) The brain-dead bank had a crew in to clean, and they swept up the basement and dumped everything into the toilet and shower.

I will keep y'all posted.

*jim and alex day

**********

Is there another toilet upstairs that you could try in the basement? If so, give er a go and it will tell you if it was just a plugged up toilet. Looking forward to hearing what you find. Lee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygirlsdad77

is there another toilet upstairs that you could try in the basement? If so, give er a go and it will tell you if it was just a plugged up toilet. Looking forward to hearing what you find. Lee.

Good morning Lee -

We tried a closet auger on the (old) toilet, absolutely would not go through. Acted like there was a blockage. Water does go through the toilet. So, we took the old toilet off, again, and tried to run the closet auger through it, from the bottom. No go. We put in the toilet (tank and bowl) from upstairs, the problem is still there. Very very slow flush. Not even a flush, just a very slow drain with a glug glug glug. Upstairs toilet flushes normally and I assume it goes into the same pipe, it goes into the basement slab about 2 feet from the basement toilet. I have already run my snake all the way in the drain - about 25 feet worth. The drain has no problem keeping up with a garden hose full force. It does have a vent, the vent comes off the sink upstairs.

So, two issues here. The main issue is what is going on with this toilet, and two, why could I not get the closet auger through the old topilet, could there be something wedged way up in it? Two unrelated issues?

Help!

Yep, sounds like something is wedged in old toilet preventing auger to pass through. But, since you put on the other toilet that you know was working, and it still won't flush,, I'm really leaning toward a PARTIAL blockage in the downstairs toilet drain. You said you ran a garden hose in the drain and it took all of the water,, but you need to fill a five gallon bucket and dump it down the drain(with toilet off) as a garden hose will not produce as large of a volume of water as a toilet will when flushing... Give it a try, dump the five gallon bucket as fast as you can, and if it backs up even a little bit, you have a partiall blockage in drain, and need to send down a larger auger into drain.. Shouldn't have to run it very far. Hope to hear what you find... Lee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygirlsdad77

is there another toilet upstairs that you could try in the basement? If so, give er a go and it will tell you if it was just a plugged up toilet. Looking forward to hearing what you find. Lee.

Lee -

We had Roto-Rooter come out and snake that drain line. I was going to rent the machine and do it myself but the wife said she "just wanted it done". So I'm not the fastest.

Yes, there were a few roots in there and the roto rooter took care of that. But mostly a lot of mud. We suspect the mud and other stuff was flushed down that basement toilet when the cleanup crew came in.

We also ran the camera down the line - under the slab the pipe is cast iron, and there is some standing water in it, as well as a groove in the bottom. Plumber said the groove would be caused by grease sitting in the pipe, and that the pipe may not have been installed with enough drop. Grease eats cast iron? No more McDonalds for me;-)

And the bad news - there's ALWAYS bad news - once outside the back of the house, the pipe converts to terra cotta, and of course, there was a broken piece that we could not get the camera past.

But the toilet (new) flushes like a champ. It has the "Niagara Flush" system - low water volume. No flapper, just a tray inside the tank that literally dumps about a gallon of water. Looks funny but does seem to work. It was rated high on the flush index. Water here is rather cheap so honestly, saving a few gallons does not excite us.

Thanks to Lee and others who offered advice. BTW - the old toilet - is sitting in the basement, one day I will bust it apart and see just what is stuck in it.

*jim and alexandra in MD

Thanks for the update..