Hello
I have a 4 unit apartment building with 2 meter sockets and 2-150Amp breaker panels. The entire building is fed from these 2 meters and I would like to add a 3 gang meter socket and separate all the apartments and have one extra meter for Landlord use.
I checked with the power company and I was told I can simply leave what is already there and add the additional meter socket. My plan is to mount the proper sized conduit next to the existing conduit and bring one line down to the new 3 gang meter socket. From the bottom of this meter socket I would like to bring the 3 feeds out in one conduit into a trough and then from the trough go out to each individual breaker panel. The trough will have stubs coming out of the back into the area were the new panels will be mounted. I would like to just stub into the house and not run conduit all the way into the panels but am willing to do that if necessary. The Panels will either be 125amp or higher, which ever is cheaper since my local store is running a special on certain sized panels right now.
The panels will feed 1 apartment each and the apartments will have electric baseboard heat, 50amp ranged and various general outlets and lights.
I have several years experience as an electrical laborer and have no problem getting the equipment and installing everything. I am not very familiar with calculating loads, what and if you can de-rate anything, what size and what kind of wires I would need for the services I plan on installing.
I have included some pictures on the outside and inside as well as a drawing to help visualize what I would like to do. My questions would be:
1. What size and what kind of entrance wire do I need from the mast to the meter socket?
2. What size conduit do I need for the entrance line?
3. Can I run one piece of conduit from the meter to the trough since there will be 3 feeder lines going from the meter to the trough and then to the panel.
4. What size and what kind of wire would I need coming from the meter to the panels
5. Can I use the same ground wire and ground rods from the other panels, I just drove to new one 2 years ago and they are in good shape

And you don't consider this a job for a pro? :confused:

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Originally Posted by stanfortyman

And you don't consider this a job for a pro? :confused:

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No, I don't. I have all the tools and most of the knowledge and there is no way I am going to shell out thousands of dollars to pay someone I know just about everything to do. I basically just needed help calculated the needed amps. I can figure out the rest. Guess that is what I am going to have to do anyway. Thanks

Please take a moment and check with the local authority having jurisdiction for electrical work in your area.

Do you live in this building or are all of the apartments open for rent? Be aware that since this an apartment dwelling you may be required to have a licensed electrician do this work.

For several reasons:

1) Normally this type of work requires and electrical permit and inspection. And the issuance of a permit normally requires a "Pencil" (as in colored pencil)drawing of both the current installation and the future installation.

2) Take a look at the service point. This area is very congested. This opens up the possibility of a fatal shock. Since there are already two service heads and several cable drops in the area.

3) The LAHJ, may already have published the service drop cables sizes they require for the amperage that you want the meter to support.

The LAHJ will do this to prevent the need for electricians and engineers to provide precise or approximate amperage with every drawing they submit to the LAHJ permit desk.

4) The drawing detail has to be exact and must include the drop into the panel and the distribution out of the panel.

The power company needs to give their permission to install the meter and the placement of the service drop and meter.

Oh, FWIW - Of course if you have a licensed electrician do this work, you get to deduct all of the costs associated with this work from your taxes. :)

I would simply add one more 100 amp service entrance, complete with conduit riser, meter and panel, just for the landlord, and leave both apt services as is. Then swap over to the new service the branch circuits that the landlord is responsible for.

One issue I see is if a new riser is added, the point of attachment must be at least 3 feet away for a window. Hard to determine, if that is a window on the second floor, or is it permanently blocked.

The apts have 150 amp service for a reason, most likely due to the electric heat in each. Before I speculate what a new service, main and apts, should be sized, need to do load calculations.

This requires knowing the square footage of each apt, list of all major electric appliances, cooking laundry, water heater ,and total KW of all electric heat.

Don is correct, that owners can only do their own electric work is single family home the owner lives in.

Multifamily dwelling is considered as commercial, and must have a license electrician, with all insurances, be the responsible permitee, and perform all the work.

I have done thousands of services in hundreds of towns and cities in several states, never had to submit a sketch, or was told what size wire to use. I did have to submit load calculations sometimes. Most inspectors only check for proper installation .

Now that you have consulted with the utility, time to consult with the local inspector.

But that's 3 services not 5. The OP wants one service for FOUR apartments and ONE COMMON area like it's SUPPOSED to be done.

The Sticky accessed at the top left, Electrical & Lighting, does have instructions on how to read the NEC online by just registering. Load calcs are there.

You need to use a UV resistant wire such as XHHW from the mast to the meter socket.

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Originally Posted by donf

Please take a moment and check with the local authority having jurisdiction for electrical work in your area.

Do you live in this building or are all of the apartments open for rent? Be aware that since this an apartment dwelling you may be required to have a licensed electrician do this work.

For several reasons:

1) Normally this type of work requires and electrical permit and inspection. And the issuance of a permit normally requires a "Pencil" (as in colored pencil)drawing of both the current installation and the future installation.

2) Take a look at the service point. This area is very congested. This opens up the possibility of a fatal shock. Since there are already two service heads and several cable drops in the area.

3) The LAHJ, may already have published the service drop cables sizes they require for the amperage that you want the meter to support.

The LAHJ will do this to prevent the need for electricians and engineers to provide precise or approximate amperage with every drawing they submit to the LAHJ permit desk.

4) The drawing detail has to be exact and must include the drop into the panel and the distribution out of the panel.

The power company needs to give their permission to install the meter and the placement of the service drop and meter.

Oh, FWIW - Of course if you have a licensed electrician do this work, you get to deduct all of the costs associated with this work from your taxes. :)

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Hello

I do live in the building and there is only one other unit rented beside the one we live in. When I was wiring homes about 5 years ago the only time you needed a permit was when you worked in a city. This work is being done in a township in PA outside of city limits. I do need to get a permit from my local township authority andhas done so already.
I did forget to mention that I currently work for our local cable companay and will be moving the cable lines before all the new services are mounted.
I have also spoke to my local cable company and I have a form to fill out and send back to them. I also plan on having the service disconnected and then reconnect while I work on adding the new service. I am just havingsome trouble with the calculating the amps needed for each new panel and what size wire I need to run from the panels to the meter and then from the meter to the top of the mast.
This is some great info though and thenk you

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

I would simply add one more 100 amp service entrance, complete with conduit riser, meter and panel, just for the landlord, and leave both apt services as is. Then swap over to the new service the branch circuits that the landlord is responsible for.

One issue I see is if a new riser is added, the point of attachment must be at least 3 feet away for a window. Hard to determine, if that is a window on the second floor, or is it permanently blocked.

The apts have 150 amp service for a reason, most likely due to the electric heat in each. Before I speculate what a new service, main and apts, should be sized, need to do load calculations.

This requires knowing the square footage of each apt, list of all major electric appliances, cooking laundry, water heater ,and total KW of all electric heat.

Don is correct, that owners can only do their own electric work is single family home the owner lives in.

Multifamily dwelling is considered as commercial, and must have a license electrician, with all insurances, be the responsible permitee, and perform all the work.

I have done thousands of services in hundreds of towns and cities in several states, never had to submit a sketch, or was told what size wire to use. I did have to submit load calculations sometimes. Most inspectors only check for proper installation .

Now that you have consulted with the utility, time to consult with the local inspector.

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Hello TKRussell
I forgot about the window so I may be back to my original plan which was take out everything that was there and replace it with one - 5 ganged meter socket and one mast, bummer. I also wonder about the commercial issue. In PA a building is not considered commercial unless it is 5 units or more or has a busiess operating out of it. Neither of those apply here, would I still have to have a licenses electrician do the work or would I be able to. If so, it would almost be cheaper for me to go get my insurance back just for this job, lol. Thanks

OK So I missed the four unit plan, chill.

Then adding the 3 banger is fine. Multiple service drops are no issue, but that window is.

If you use a stacked meter center, say a 3 + 2, then the riser could be off to one side away from the window.

Still need to do load calcs.


Check with your existing liability insurance to see any problem with you doing the work. No fun learning later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tkrussell

OK So I missed the four unit plan, chill.

Then adding the 3 banger is fine. Multiple service drops are no issue, but that window is.

If you use a stacked meter center,, say a 3 + 2, then the riser could be off to one side away from the window.

Still need to do load calcs.


Check with your existing liability insurance to see any problem with you doing the work. No fun learning later.

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I took some measurements today, window is going to be a problem. In the picture I took the mast closer to the window is 3 ft away so can't get any closer. I am checking with the power company, my insurance company and the township just to be sure of everything. Guess this is going to be a total disconnect/reconnect and a complete new service after all. Bummer