Hello:

Here we got ole Bill Clinton going to N. Korea and rescuing two American girls, and the right calls it a failure... What?? I guess family values are important, except when your children are being held in a foreign country...

Since they don't LIKE diplomacy, evidence that diplomacy WORKS kind of dumps their applecart, so I'll bet that's why they don't like it. Maybe they think it gave the dear leader some prestige or something... Which may be true, but it got our girls out, and that's what diplomacy is about.

Is prestige for Kim jong il bad for us? Or, is the prestige we gained by saving our citizens better than what the right thinks we lost?? I'm waiting for you tell us why it isn't.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

Here we got ole Bill Clinton going to N. Korea and rescuing two American girls, and the right calls it a failure... What???? I guess family values are important, except when your children are being held in a foreign country...

I guess, since they don't LIKE diplomacy, evidence that diplomacy WORKS kinda dumps their applecart, so I'll bet that's why they don't like it. Maybe they think it gave the dear leader some prestige or something.... Which may be true, but it got our girls out, and that's what diplomacy is about.

Is prestige for Kim jong il bad for us? Or,is the prestige we gained by DOING it better than what the right thinks we lost??? I'm waiting for you tell us why it isn't.

excon

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You'll get no argument here. I think it was a huge success. Kim Jong knew it would be seen as some attempt at civility. Regardless, it worked. I was wondering, me being bad, how the flight back over here went. With Bill and the gratefully just released girls... You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the horn out of the dog. He's my hero.

But arguments are what these threads are for. Nevertheless, Those two don't really seem like Bubba's type - too thin. Lewinsky and Flowers and all had some meat on their bones.

I actually hope Kim thinks this was a victory. Ex is right that the girls are safe, so this actually does look like a win - win.

Successful diplomacy evidenty means getting hostages back for concessions.You call that successful diplomacy but I have a different words for it... blackmail ,kidnapping ,and ransom . At a minimum Kim used the arrest of two journalists to secure a bilateral meeting .

Do you know what other deal was stuck ? Nope. I can assure you that it is more than stroking Kim Jon mentally-Il's ego . No doubt there was an apology thrown in . It is what our current President does best.

No doubt the Iranians got wind of the secret clandestine negotiations that took place prior to Clintoon's visit. I wonder if there is a connection between those events and the recent kidnapping of 3 American hikers Joshua Fattal, Shane Bower and Sara Short ? Nah ;Iran and the NORKS never coordinate their actions.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Do you know what other deal was stuck ? Nope. I can assure you that it is more than stroking Kim Jon mentally-Il's ego . No doubt there was an apology thrown in .

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You forget that it was Mr. "depends on what your definition of 'is' is" that made the apology. Heck, if that's all it takes to get kidnap victims back, Bubba just found his "Habitat for Humanity" type calling.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Successful diplomacy evidenty means getting hostages back for concessions.You call that successful diplomacy but I have a different words for it....blackmail ,kidnapping ,and ransom .

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Hello again, tom:

Yup. Kin jong il is bad... So, we should have punished him by letting him put those girls in jail... You really don't know how dumb that sounds, do you? Nope, you don't.

excon

How anyone can see this as anything other than a success is beyond me.. But lots of things are beyond me I suppose.

Hello Skell:

It clearly IS a win win. However, those who disdain diplomacy couldn't really acknowledge that, now could they?

excon

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Originally Posted by tomder55

No doubt there was an apology thrown in .

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I hope so. The girls were in the wrong.

All Kim Jong Il wants is some respect. He's like the schoolyard bully who will knock himself out with bad behavior just so he will get yelled at by a teacher, and being yelled at is better than being ignored. The time Kim got some real respect and an apology from the greatest nation in the world. I hope President Clinton also discussed how the two countries can work together to make this a better world. North Korea's people are long overdue some humanity, so maybe this is the beginning.

This is a good thing a result without threats and posturing, that's real progress, perhaps the greatest progress in fifty years of paranoia

He will launch a few more ;detonate a few more ;take a few more hostages... that is the MO for his whole reign . Nothing changes. Tell me Clete because you are more familiar with the area than we are... how many Japanese and South Koreans have the NORKS kidnapped ?

Should those 2 countries kowtow to the nut jub dictator also so they can get their hostages released?

Listen to the hypocrisy here. Reagan was correctly criticized for negotiating and making concessions to Iran for hostages who were captured by Iranian proxies in Lebanon. He was investigated by the left for his actions . And his critics were right .It was the low point of his Presidency.

Now ;apparently it is good negotiations to make concessions to kidnappers.

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hope so. The girls were in the wrong.

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They were filming from the Chinese side of the border . NORK border patrol crossed the border to detain them. That's kidnapping .

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

Here we got ole Bill Clinton going to N. Korea and rescuing two American girls, and the right calls it a failure... What?? I guess family values are important, except when your children are being held in a foreign country...

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I don't think it was a failure. I think this is the first time since Clinton was elected President 17 years ago that he actually accomplished a mission he set out to accomplish.

On the other hand, who could have been better for this mission than Clinton: To pick up two women and pay off some Asians? He's got more experience with both of these actions than any other President in our history.

The only question I have is what did he promise N. Korea in exchange for the two women? We don't know the answer to that question.

But Clinton did what he set out to do. Mission accomplished.

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Since they don't LIKE diplomacy, evidence that diplomacy WORKS kind of dumps their applecart, so I'll bet that's why they don't like it. Maybe they think it gave the dear leader some prestige or something... Which may be true, but it got our girls out, and that's what diplomacy is about.

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Again, all true. But what did he promise them? And how will what he promissed them effect our future relations with N. Korea? I'm not saying it was a failure. It wasn't. He accomplished his goal. I'm saying we don't know what's coming down the pike.

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Is prestige for Kim jong il bad for us?

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Depends. How will that prestige manifest?

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Or, is the prestige we gained by saving our citizens better than what the right thinks we lost?? I'm waiting for you tell us why it isn't.

excon

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What prestige do you think we gained? We sent Clinton to some second-tier nation that can barely feed itself and begged them to let our women go, and in doing so, we made promisses to them. What those promisses were, we don't know, but we know they were made. In other words, we bowed to the demands of a local dictator. It may have been NECESSARY, and it may have accomplished the mission, but it sure didn't gain us any prestige in the international community.

I'll bet you $5 right now that within 2 years, not only will North Korea kidnap some more foreigners, Iran will have also kidnapped some foreigners. Because they now know that America will kowtow to their demands... which means that other countries will kowtow as well. Why change what obviously works?

In other words, this has not only not improved our prestige in the international community, it will have decreased it.

Was this the right move? I don't know. Maybe. But I'm more worried about the consequences of it going forward in terms of promisses made and the future actions of our enemies. You clearly are not.

Elliot

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I'll bet you $5 right now that within 2 years, not only will North Korea kidnap some more foreigners, Iran will have also kidnapped some foreigners.

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Already happened . American hikers were kidnapped by Iran.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Already happened . American hikers were kidnapped by Iran.

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Hello again, tom:

If Iran kidnapped Americans because they thought they were going to get the same treatment N. Korea got, how come they kidnapped 'em BEFORE Clinton's visit?

excon

Do you think that Clinton's visit began or was the conclusion of the process to give into the blackmail ? Since you are an expert at diplomacy you must realize that the Clintoon did not go there until all the ducks were already in a row.

The Norks and the Iranians have close working relations so it is clear that I'm let them know America was caving .

Well, we'll see what actions the US government takes in dealing with the kidnap of these three hikers.

If we "negotiate" again for these hostages and get them back, what does that mean for the NEXT TIME it happens? And the time after that?

How many times should the USA deal with kidnappers and cave in to their demands before we do something more drastic?

excon, you MAY be right that Clinton's actions in NK were the right thing to do. (I question it, but just for argument's sake, let's say you're right.) Let's say that it actually improved our prestige around the world.

But how many times can we give in to our enemies who are kidnapping our citizens without LOSING our prestige? How many times can we do this before the rest of the world turns around and says that the USA is run by a bunch of weaklings, and we can get away with anything we want because the USA won't stop us?

When does "negotiation" and giving in become self-defeating, and strong military action become the only viable option to protect US citizens?

That's what I mean about understanding the consequeces going forward.

Again, I don't know whether Clinton's visit was the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do. From my point of view, the jury's still out. But the questions for the FUTURE consesequences are scary.

Elliot

Hello again, righty's:

I don't know where you got the notion that diplomacy = catering... But, you GOT it. It's a WRONG notion. I'm not going to CONVINCE you of that, because you're beyond being convinced...

You think we should just talk to our friends... I think we should talk to our enemies. Good thing YOUR idea was thrown in the crapper in the last election.

excon

Negotiations with the Kim regime have led nowhere for years. Do you think this is the 1st attempt to help Kim save face and gain prestige ? Jimmy Carter ;Madelline Albright ; President Kim Dae Jung of South Korea and his "Sunshine Policy " ;Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan have all grovelled to the man . Still his nuke,and missile program grows unimpeded as the NORKS become greater threats to their neighbors.

There was a real chance that after Kim Jong Il that there could've been a leadership vacuum in the country and the Kim regime finally end. But it is more likely now that this face saving gesture will be seen as strength and his son's succession insured . That is what I predict this whole event will bring... another generation of the Kim's gulag .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

But it is more likely now that this face saving gesture will be seen as strength and his son's succession insured . That is what I predict this whole event will bring.....another generation of the Kim's gulag .

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Hello again, tom:

So you really think the son wouldn't have succeeded his father WITHOUT Bill Clinton's visit?? And, you think the result of his visit, will be an entire generation of North Koreans being put in the gulags??

Dude!

excon