Hello - I am new to this forum.

Instead of typing a paragraph trying to describe my situation I have included some photos.

I am remodeling an original full bath that is from 1930. It has a tub, sink and toilet.

Buried under 4 inches of concrete I found this drain situation. I wouldn't mind leaving it alone, but the glavanized drain pipes are rotted right out as well as shearing off where they go into the cast closet bend.

This complete drain system was working fine until the pipe in the photo sheared off during demolition of the floor. I am concerned the others are not far behind.

Keeping codes in mind (upstate NY), what would be the most economical way to get this working again (I intend on replacing the gal pipe to the tub and sink with pvc probably)

PS - 3 oclock is some kind of vent loop

5 oclock is the shower drain pipe

8 oclock is the sink drain

The sink and tub have their own separate 1.5-2" vent pipes that go right up and out the roof of the house.

The main stack is on the outside wall of the house, house is brick.

Bath is on second floor, unfinished attic above it.

The only part of the stack that is accessible is shown (without ripping apart the room below on floor 1).

The basic layout of the room is staying the same.

Oh, and the pink toilet that I removed (dated 1983) was a few inches off the wall (the tank), so there seems to bea spacing issue. Approx 17 inches from center of flange to wall.

Any comments would be appreciated.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j60/t56tr/005.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j60/t56tr/006.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j60/t56tr/007.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j60/t56tr/009.jpg

Hey T56tr:

I think most pros would rip all this out and start over. I'm pretty sure you will waste more time trying to salvage all this than it will take to simply remove it all and replace with new, AND you would still have old pipes that could cause issues later... ;)

Best bet here will be to cut the closet bend about 2.5" out of the cast iron hub (use sawzall with bimetal blades) and install a 4" cast iron x3" PVC shielded clamp (see image) so you can pipe all this up in PVC.

Next, you will need to confirm that WET VENTING is allowed in your area. If it is then this just got a lot simpler for you as you will be able to vent this whole bathroom using only 1-2" vent.

Here, after the clamp you want to install a 3"x2" PVC STREET wye fitting (roll above center line of 3" pipe) into the clamp and run this 2" right over to the lavatory (sink) where you will run a 2" vent up into the space above connecting into a 2" or larger vent upstairs. The 2" shower waste will connect into this 2" lavatory drain as it goes by the shower.

I posted a picture showing basics of wet venting. Use the fittings I mentioned at the clamp and follow very similar to the picture after that (only shower is 2"). If wet venting isn't allowed then this gets more complicated in that you will need to run individual vent for toilet, sink and shower (left, bottom image). The bottom right picture shows wet venting again... replace tub with shower. THESE PICTURES ARE ONLY A GUIDE... if you can wet vent pop back so I can draw up a better picture of YOUR situation... only takes me a few minutes.

Let us know what you think...

MARK

Thanks so much. I need to investigate the went vent thing. However due to the layout, the shower drain might have to enter the lav drain very close to the closet bend.

couple of questions...

In the one pic (my pics) that shows the galvanized short vent pipe that goes from the closet bent to the stack in the wall ( a couple feet above)... how come I don't see that vent pipe in a lot of plumbing diagrams/pics etc? Do they sometimes not use that?

Second, because my tub and sink both have their own 1.5-2 inch vent pipes out through my roof, could I use your idea of using the 3x2 Y, but just have the tub and lav join together and enter the 2" inlet of the Y?

If so, what would you do with the closet bend vent (the one I asked about in the previous question above)? There would be no where to hook it up to, unless you had a 3x2x2 Y, no? Or is it not needed?

Finally, how reliable is a fernco or band clamp on a horizontal pipe, such as this application? Reason I ask is because this will begetting all closed in.

Thanks again!

Hi..

1) That first pipe is the toilet vent. You usually don't see it in most pictures because it is not usually run up so close to the toilet like this, but if codes required individual vents then a toilet vent is always present. If wet vented, then the lavatory acts as a WET VENT for the toilet and an individual toilet vent would not be present as in your pic.

2) This gets a bit trickier... the 3"x2"x2" wye sounds good, but problem is that the 3" wye sounds good, but problem is that the 3"x2" wye can't roll so the 2"x2" toilet vent now... see how the tapping it connects into is ABOVE the centerline of the 4" cast iron drain..?

I'm sure we can figure an option or two, but first see if we even need, too. If you can wet vent then we will not need to break this down to that level.

The lavatory drain and the tub/shower drain will definitely connect into 1-2" horizontal pipe, but as mentioned check on wet venting so we can finish this for you!

Finally, the shielded clamps are how we have been transitioning between cast iron and PVC since I can practically remember... ;) You will have nothing to worry about in terms of closing in the work if you torque the shielded clamp properly.

Let me know what you think...

MARK

You are indeed the man! I have been asking about the wet vent and most people are not sure. I may have to put an anonymous call into the town -- maybe tomorrow.

One idea if the wet vent doesn't fly... what about cut the pipe as you mentioned, then fernco to 4x4x3 sanitary t (with the 3" laying over facing the cold water supply), then into the 3 opening a 3x3 90 to get it pointed to the lav, but use one of the 3x3 90's that also has a 1.5 or 2 opening right out the side (not a t or y just a port). Have that port facing almost straight up, and cross it over and hook it up to the current toilet vent. Finally, just combine your lave and tub into a 2" run and reduce into the 3 (on the 90). Keep the lav and tub vents in place and working as well.

If you can visualize that...

Oh and out of the 4 bend up to a flange...

First... you won't be using a FERNCO coupling... use a shielded clamp... OK? Big difference here... the all rubber ferncos with 2 SS bands are for underground work (or quick repair where pipes are accessible). The shielded clamps are made for this application.

Second... you will want to purchase a 4" cast iron x 3" PVC shielded clamp. Reducing to 3" will allow you to keep fittings tighter. A 3" drain pipe can accommodate up to 3 toilets so no issues there.

Third... if wet venting isn't allowed you will either be using the old cast iron fitting (a good plumber can probably salvage it for you) OR you will be cutting into the 4" cast iron stack from below (and above) to pipe this all up correctly. Here, you would cut out the cast iron sanitary tee fitting in the stack and install a new 4"x3" sanitary tee fitting so that the new angle it comes out of the wall would allow for a 12-14" rough in off the rough stud wall. You would also install a 4"x2" wye fitting into the vertical stack (below the 4"x3" sanitary tee) and run that 2" up to pick up the lav. And the tub. This would fix your rough in for the toilet and still allow you to use all the old vents.


WHY all this you ask.. Because the side inlet elbow you mentioned is no longer legal anywhere that I know of... never mind that a 4"x4"x4" sanitary tee cannot be used on the horizontal... ;) Complicated... huh?


Anyway, check to see if wet venting is allowed... could save you money/time if it is.

Let me know...

Quote:

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I have been asking about the wet vent and most people are not sure.

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You fall under the IPC and wet vents are allowed,(see below). But check local codes to be certain.

Quote:

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• IPC 909 & IRC 3108.1: Horizontal wet vents, those drainage pipes that
Serve as both drain and vent purposes, are allowed for any combination
Of fi xtures within two bathroom groups located on the same floor.

---

There's no doubt in my mind that I would tear out all the old rotten plumbing and convert to plastic. Good luck, Tom

Wet venting is good. Let's proceed.

OK..

You will want to remove all the old pipes. Cap off the toilet vent at the 2" elbow and eliminate the lavatory and tub vents (cap off the tub vent wherever it is good).

You would then cut the 4" cast iron closet bend about 2.5" off the cast iron hub using a sawzall with a bimetal blade.

Install the 4"cast iron x 3" PVC shielded clamp and install a 3"x2" street wye... the wye must roll slightly above the centerline of the waste line. From there you will install a 3" regular elbow or a 3" street elbow for the toilet into the end of the 3"x2" wye fitting. Use the elbow that brings you closest to wall but also leaves you centered in the space best. If possible, may even be better if you installed a 3" street 22.5 degree fitting into the 3" street 22.5 degree fitting into the 3" wye as it may be bring you right in line for best toilet fit (12"-14" wye as it may be bring you right in line for best toilet fit (12" street 90 elbow for toilet. You will need to play with this for best fit!

Out of the 3" off wall)....then install a 3" wye you will run straight out through the old sink holes in the joists and pick up the lavatory and the tub as drawn below... ;) DO NOT notch the joists in different places... already in tough shape. Use the old holes where possible.

The 2"x2" for the lavatory sink at 18" lavatory pipe will stub out 1.5"x1.5" to center of 2" or larger vent.

Then you will need to cap and test all this, but let's discuss that after you get started... ;)

MARK

Excellent. I will be getting out of work a bit early today and I will get started. One final note -I will be installing a clawfoot in place of the original tub that was removed. The drain and pressure lines will be on the same wall as the lav - which should make things easier.

In regards to the clawfoot, is that trapped like an ordinary tub? In this case which would be in the floor?

A clawfoot tub gets roughed in using a ptrap just like a regular tub but you will need to install the waste pipe so that the 1.5" PVC desanco fitting NUT is about 1/2" above the finished floor. The nut will be covered by a chrome escutcheon.

A clawfoot tub waste assembly is 1-3/8" so the chrome tub waste and the chrome nut to transition to the 1.5" PVC desanco fitting is considered special order... ;) Check your local plumbing supply house... only people that will have it.

A desanco can also be called a compression fitting or a trap adapter.

MARK

1 hour and 4 sawzall blades later... time to go shopping


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j60/t56tr/002.jpg

Nice straight cut! Hopefully you remembered to pick up a 3" street 22.5 degree fitting to see if it will push you closer to wall.

Also, if you had trouble finding a street 3"x2" wye then you may only find that at a plumbing supply house.

The idea is to have street fittings and regular fittings... betwenn all you should be able to get that toilet closer than 17" off the wall.

Keep us posted.

MARK

Thanks... Bad news first. Went to depot, Lowe's, and fw Webb. None of them have any 3,3,2 street ys. Had to get a regular. Next none of them have 4x3 reduction with the metal bands. I was surprised Webb didn't, being a plumbing supply. They all said fernco is the only one. I compared the ferns to the band clamps, and the bands look much better, as you said. I can do 4 to 4 with a band then reduce to 3 with a PVC reducer...

O did get the 3 22 deg though, both street and reg. Going to try and mock something up tnight.

Ps I had a little helper on the removal. A 10000 rpm makita. Plus I found the 4 inch has a bit of a casting rib top and bottom that I dressed down a bit. Seemed like it might not let the rubber of the bandclamp seat right. Well, today was 1 hour work 3 hours chasin parts. Oh nice clawfoot info -

Mock it up... see what happens. If needed, check another supply house for the 3"x2" street wye... most carry them.

If unsure of clamp then you can order a 4 band husky clamp and install a 4"x3" PVC flush bushing... works great, too.

MARK

Well after experimenting with the myriad of parts that I have collected I have come to a couple of conclusions.

1) Is that even with a street y (dont have one yet but estimated) and the 22 deg in there its still going to give me like 14-15 off the wall. I might be able to gain a little more if I take an inch off the hub area of the stack, but it won't leave much for clamping.

2) Just putting the 3x3x2 y right out of the clamp puts the toilet where it was originally pretty much - this was using the steel band clamp 4x4 to a 4x3 reduction even.
Adding the 22 deg to this pushs the toilet to close to the doorway.
In the above set-up I could leave the toilet where it was and frame the wall out a bit behind it to compensate...

3)One discovery I had was that using a 1056 series fernco 4x3 reductiion clamp that I had, I could clock the toilet so the tank backed up against the wall with the stack, and that would give me about 13-13.5 off the wall and 15 inches from the side. Getting close there. The 1056 fernco is the regular home depot one, but on the websire it says cast iron or plastic to cast iron or plastic.

I also checked fercons website and the do make the stainless band clamps in 4x3... where to find them though.

One other question I had... when this is finally mocked up, for the actuall closet bend (or final elbow heading up to the toilet,) does that have to be an actuall closet bend like the ones the suppliers sell (I think 4x3 etc), or just a regular elbow with a toilet flange stuck in it. If it is just a regular bend or elbow, would it just be the same diameter as the y. In this case 3x3x2 y to 3 bend, to flange.

1) 14-15" translates to 13.5 to 14.5" off the finished wall so a 14" rough in toilet should be a pretty nice fit!

2) if necessary...but hopefully #1 above works better...find that street wye!

3) Still an underground clamp, but lots of people use them in these cases. However, if this was to be inspected that clamp wouldn't fly.

4) Almost any 3" elbow will work here... 3" regular, 3" street, 3" long sweep. You install whatever gets you to the best placement.

Finally, when you stub up from the toilet elbow I would recommend that you just stub a piece of pipe into the elbow for now... DON'T PRIME or CEMENT it in. Then later, at finish you can pull the stubbed pipe out and measure from the fitting to finish floor and then install the new closet flange... makes flange installation go very smoothly!

Install jim caps on all pipes that you stub up or out of the floor/wall... see image.

I'm off working most of the day, but I'll try to pop in and see if you have questions right after work!

Good luck today...

MARK

Well I have a steel band reduction fernco on order but the street y isn't happening. I called every plumbing type supply warehouse within an hour of Albany, NY (largest city close to where I live), and no one has it or wants to bother trying to find it.

Going to mock it up with the rubber fernco for now, I can swap that out later when I cement things up. Ill try to get a pic up tonight - thanks!

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