Interesting question about abortions . We have been told that they are rights for any women who wants them ,that the government has no business denying the right. While health care is also presumably a right ;but a right that can be rationed.

Time Magazine asks if abortions will be covered under the national insurance plan .
Health-Care Reform: A Fight over Abortion Coverage? - TIME

But a provision covering abortions could split the Democrat coalition .
Pro-Life Democrats Tell Nancy Pelosi: No Health Care Reform With Abortion

Even more important ; will the politburo make a case by case determination about the worthiness of the patients claim to the procedure ? Will there be rationing of life ending procedures as there most surely will be for life saving ones ?

Oh, wow, talk about opening up a can of worms.

I know, not constructive in any sense of the word, but I had to say it. This is almost as bad as a religious discussion (or healthcare issues).

Tick

Just can't help myself.

I don't get that rationing this health care right either but excon explained it to me yesterday and I'm sure he'll do so again. The answer to your last question though is no, there won't be any rationing of life ending procedures if they can help it... for the unborn or anyone else. It's a perfect way to thin out those unwanted populations Justice Ginsburg referred to the other day.

The "Health Benefits Advisory Committee" politboro membership will be determined by the President and Kathleen Sebelius. We know where they come down on the issues ;especially about the availability of late term abortions.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

just can't help myself.

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Lol, tomder, you posts and topics are well planned out and initiated, I can't help it if I don't agree with some of them. :D

Tick

Thank you
;)

Ohhhhh tom, you are the devils advocate!

Before I share my own opinion I think he should need to share his. Bring it on devil man!

OK here's the can of worms

What do I think ? I think this bill represents the largest expansion in abortion availabilty since Roe v Wade. However ,not having language specifing that tax payers will not be forced to fund abortions could be the sand in the gears that brings this legislation to a grinding halt .The majority of Americans don't approve of killing unborn children. Americans largely oppose paying for abortions through their taxes .

Do I think elective abortion is a right ? No ,but I don't think health care is a right either ;or certainly not one that is constitutionally guaranteed. I can claim a right to health care ;but it is up to me to insure that I can get it.

Regarding 'rationing ' it is only consistent that the government would favor life ending procedures over life saving because it would help with the costs that will ballon under guaranteed care.

Besides there are some in the administration that are almost cult-like in their culture of death advocacy.
Consider the words of " Czar of Science " John P. Holdren :
There exists ample authority under which population growth could be regulated...It has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society.

And given more time I could pull up similar comment by officials like Evita Clintoon and Kathleen Sebelius who as Kansas Governor blocked attempts to restrict late term abortions.

Population control rather than "women's reproductive rights" has always been the real stated and unstated rationale behind abortions. Don't think so ? Just study the total work and words of Margaret Sanger ,founder of Planned Parenthood.

I have to ask though, what about women that are raped? What about women who find out their babies have a lethal condition? I think in these cases it should be an option.

I find it very intersting that some people are going to use an artificial, government-created "right" that has never existed until the government decided to interfere (health insurance) to either promote or deny another artificial, government-created right that never existed before the government decided to interfere (abortion).

The irony is delicious, no matter how it plays out.

Elliot

I hate debating with a person who is just plain more well rounded than I am. Meaning smarter AND more well read. I do have opinions though so I am going to try. :rolleyes:

Social politics. Boo. I don't think that it is the responsibility of our government, who represent the people, to pay for abortion. Neither do I agree that the government should be allowed to limit privatized health care in regard to abortion. That's just as easy as saying have my cake and eat it too.

While the article you posted states that nearly 90% of private health care insurers cover abortion, I find it neglectful to leave out the 10% of health insurers that our country can use if they don't agree with abortion. I happen to be one of those people who don't believe in abortion, I do believe in a woman's right to choose though.

If our government is so concerned with making sure that we have health care, then it is also their responsibility to make sure that they advocate the desires of the people who elect them into office in the first place.

As for population control... How much do you know about sterilization and the history of its practices in the U.S? It was far too controversial a subject and abortion became a more easily debatable solution. Women's rights became the subject that those who felt population control necessary could piggyback on. I find it easy to agree with you that advocating abortion becomes an issue of population control. What do you think an unwanted baby is? I may have just humanized that a bit too much, but you can understand my point.

A lot of people have strong moral and political views when it comes to abortion, in this case, while I can understand the need for those who feel strongly about it to rally to the cause. I think it's more harping on a side issue, than focusing on the health care issue in general.

I realize this is worded poorly, but hopefully you can kind of see my point? Did I even make a point? I talk too much.

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Originally Posted by ZoeMarie

I have to ask though, what about women that are raped? What about women who find out their babies have a lethal condition? I think in these cases it should be an option.

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There are three cases that I believe abortion should be permitted.

1) Rape
2) Incest - especially FORCED incest
3) The mother's life is in jeopardy (as in an ectopic pregnancy)

The fact that the baby might have a congenital condition is NOT, in my opinion, enough of a reason to permit an abortion. If that same baby were already born and THEN diagnosed with a congenital condition, would we allow the mother to kill the baby? Certainly not. In my opinion, the same should apply BEFORE the baby is born.

In cases of rape and forced incest (which is just another form of rape), the mental/emotional health of the mother is in jeopardy. Forcing her to keep the product of a rape to term would be forcing her to relive the rape for 9 months. That is hazardous to the mother's mental wellbeing. So abortion should be an option in that case.

In the case of the mother's life being in jeopardy, we're talking about the self-defense of the mother, just as surely as if she were being threatened with a gun. Her life is paramount, and saving her life becomes the paramount concern.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ZoeMarie

I have to ask though, what about women that are raped? What about women who find out their babies have a lethal condition? I think in these cases it should be an option.

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What about things like partial birth abortion too though Zoe, you have to consider one if you consider all. It's going to seriously effect the private sector. I am all for rocking the boat there. Or anywhere.

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I have to ask though, what about women that are raped? What about women who find out their babies have a lethal condition? I think in these cases it should be an option.

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I stated that I thought "elective" abortion was not a right. What constitutes non-elective exceptions was answered nicely by Elliot .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I stated that I thought "elective" abortion was not a right. What constitutes non-elective exceptions was answered nicely by Elliot .

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I have a feeling you two are the guys to teach me how to debate with my guys friends... Now, explain how the fall of Rome has impacted the way that people view government today. Aaannnnnd go- ( No, seriously, they debate these kinds of things. It's interesting to listen to.)

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As for population control... How much do you know about sterilization and the history of its practices in the U.S? It was far too controversial a subject and abortion became a more easily debatable solution.

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Exactly . The American eugenics movement paralleled it's German counterpart for much of the early 20th century. Some of our own shameful past included the black robed oligarchs at SCOTUS upholding a Virginia law that compelled forced sterilization of mental patients. At it's peak 31 states had similar laws.
Nazi Nuremberg Laws were modeled in part on American anti-miscegenation laws.

Margaret Sanger ,an avowed racist wanted abortions and sterilizations to control the black population. Today she gets eulogized by the likes of Evita Clinton.

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Originally Posted by Chey5782

I have a feeling you two are the guys to teach me how to debate with my guys friends... Now, explain how the fall of Rome has impacted the way that people view government today. Aaannnnnd go- ( No, seriously, they debate these kinds of things. It's interesting to listen to.)

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Open it up as another thread.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Open it up as another thread.

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Yes, that is the proper way to go about it, but troll alert likely.

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Originally Posted by tickle

yes, that is the proper way to go about it, but troll alert likely.

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I don't think these count as questions that effect it, I opened a new thread, I'm sure a mod will tell me if it's uncool. It is a good discussion question though.