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I actually answered on another thread and then realized that this was way off topic. So decided to repost here. SOOO
Not totally sure I understand the Jewish relationship with the Father. I mean, are they automatically let in simply because they are Jewish? Because I do not see where they have to accept Christ.
I am not sure of how it works either but I know the Bible says that God has mercy on whom he will have mercy and people that didn't know about salvation through Jesus are held accountable for what they did know.
It also says that God knows the deepest part of our souls.
So I don't know exactly how God does it but I do believe that if a Jew doesn't regard God and acts like a heathen then no I don't think the Jew would find favor with God.
450Donn,
The bible says no one comes to the Father but through Jesus. Jesus himself told a Jew that he needed to be born again. I believe they need to be saved just like a gentile.
I am not Jewish, but I am a Christian. I have friends from many countries and some of them have been Jewish. A lot of them are faithful to their traditions, but the Bible clearly states that all people must come to the Father (God) only by accepting what Jesus(God's son) did for all mankind, which was die for them. There are Jewish Christians who have accepted what Jesus has done and there are other Jews that are still waiting on the Messiah to return.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
But as a whole, there is only one way to get to heaven and that is acknowledging God as the Father, accepting that Jesus died for our sins (wrongdoings), asking forgiveness, and allowing Jesus to be our Lord and Saviour. There is no other way. Hope this helps.
Some believe the jews have a free ride so to speak. Paul was pretty clear on the matter. He was what we would call a Jew's Jew.He did everything exactly the way jewish law prescribed and followed all the rights and rituals and even approved the killing of Christians in that "new jewish sect" thinking he was doing God a favor. When he had an encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, he said all the stuff he had done was rubbish and merely a shadow of the substance(Christ) that had come. Paul said a man is a jew if he is a jew in his heart. The real christians are the real jews now. It still boils down to - one must trust in the shed blood of Jesus to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which causes our new birth. Nicodemus, a leading Jewish teacher of the day was told by Jesus himself that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. There is no "back door" Jesus is the only door and we do it His way or we are lost. As the Lord himself said, "To my people I will say, 'you are NOT my people' and to a people that were not my people I will say, 'You ARE my people."
Also, Paul said he would sacrifice his own salvation IF it meant that the Jewish people would be saved. Why would they even bother to preach to the jews at all (which is all Peter did, being the apostle to the jews, as Paul was the apostles to the gentiles) if they were going to heaven anyway?
Jesus said, 'He who has me has the Father and whoever does not have me does not have the Father'
Since part of the Jewish faith today is to reject Jesus as the Messiah they were looking for to save them from their sins, that excludes them.
However, I know several former Jews that HAVE accepted yeshua meshiah (Jesus)as Lord and think of themselves as "Completed" jews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I also agree with you as well. I am new at using this site and still trying to figure out how to answer back and reply to those that reply. RNRG
Not a problem. You answered very much like my husband would. Sometimes it helps to point out scripture so it doesn't appear to be man's words but God's words to us. RNRGQuote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Thanks for the tidbit of help. RNRGQuote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Basically my own question comes down to what about the person who never heard of Jesus and salvation or followed a religion that didn't teach salvation or taught doctrine that wasn't quite right yet they themselves lived their life worshipping God with all their heart, mind and soul?
Can't find it right now, but the Bible does say that Jesus will not return (rapture his church) until the last man on earth will have had the opportunity to receive.
Guess this is another topic for another thread.
That is a verse I do not understand because many die without having ever heard or ever knowing anything about getting saved. They only know the tradition that their church taught or what they learned on the street.
Like my grandmother when I was little went to her Lutheran church every Sunday and believed that all it took was being a good person and going to church.
She never knew you had to accept Jesus as savior and there was no other way.
You are correct when you say that people will believe what their church teaches and adhere to the teachings of their church. This could be a good thing or a bad thing. First, as a Christian, what we do should be based on what the BIBLE says. If our church's teaching does not line up with what the Bible says, then the church is wrong. If our traditions do not line up with what the Bible says, then our traditions are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Our loyalty must first be to God who will always guide and lead us to do what is right, no matter what. Could you imagine God, who is perfect, to suggest to us to make what changes we need in the church or our world, to satisfy ourselves. He always has our best interest at heart. It is all about Him and not about us.
As for the rest of the world that has never heard of God, we need to remember that God will always "save those" that call on HIM. The Bible says that we are laid bare before him and that there is nothing we can hide from him. So, if "this person" who has never heard of God worships God, then God will reveal Himself to this person. God sees inside the heart of man. But if this man is worshiping anything else, he is not saved.
Sin has consequences, if our families neglect to tell us about God, then we risk having generations of people that will not know him. This is sad, but true. I have taught Bible studies to students from China that have never heard of God, yet when I started from the beginning of the Bible and explained about how the world and everything was made, they wanted to know why they were never told this. They even asked if my family could move to China and let their families know about this. I did remind them that at one time, their country had missionaries there, that had shared this news with them, but during the revolutions, were forced out. After many years, few people in their country knew of God.
What happened? The Gospel was lost but not totally. Now their country is back to being 99 percent other religions. A country that is mostly without God. God is faithful and answers those that call on Him. As Christians, it is also our duty to tell others. It should be a part of our daily lives to pray for all men that they may come to God. RNRG
That is exactly part of what I am saying about the Jews and people who never heard of Jesus or salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrg
I remember someone telling me one time that even if you look a person in their eyes, you can not tell if they are a Christian or not. No one wants to think of another person going to Hell, but IT IS going to happen... even those that sit beside you in church.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I know that God is the only perfect Judge and it will be Jesus who will acknowledge whether He knows us or not when we stand before Him. So, whether we live in America or in another country, God looks at the intent of the heart.
It is our duty to be faithful to whatever He tells us to do. I know this to be true because my husband and I were missionaries overseas for several years. It is sad to see people from all walks of life that are hung up with their traditions and rituals because they have been taught this.
I was faithful to share with those that God put in my path. Many people were caught up in "works" which can not save you. God made it so simple for us, people have made it difficult.
So like your grandmother, God will look at the intent of her heart. It is not for us to judge... but it is your duty to make sure that you know Christ and share the message with others. RNRG
Exactly my point except I don't think the word intent is quite the right word because like the saying 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. Meaning what your intentions are no matter how good... good works or good intents can't get you to heaven.
I see it more as what is the spirit within you. Like the Bible says something about God looks into the depth of our heart and soul and knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows what spirit he put in us. He says he is the potter and we are the clay and who are we to disagree with him.
I did not mean to use the word "intent" loosely. But if we are a Christian, then we will have the Holy Spirit living within us that intercedes on our behalf. It is what guides us and pricks us when we sin or think of sin. The Holy Spirit is our comforter and what God sent to us when He said "I will never leave or forsake you." His presence will always be with us as Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I don't think there is ever an easy answer for what we are discussing except that we make sure that we know God and that He will always save those that are seeking Him. It has always been a great concern of mine to pray for those that you are talking about because I don't want anyone to go to HELL. RNRG
There are many more facts concerning the Jew apposed to Israelite. We need to understand that all tribes were not Jew until later after the carrying away of the ten tribe was applied to the Israelite.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Jesus mother Mary was a daughter of the Levite priesthood, and we know that Moses and Aaron were known as Hebrew. "Israelites"
Jesus was the begotten Son of God
However the supposed father of Jesus on earth was Joseph from the house of David. The Jew in early time was the brother of the Hebrew tribes Isrealites (Jer 34:9) And Jews were of a Kingdom of Judah who did imprison their brothers which made God very angry.
Note the separation in example written when God speaks of Israel and Judah.
Jer 3:7-8 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
These facts are what gives meaning to Christ being the LORD of LORDS by HIS mother Mary hertiage, and KING of KINGS by HIS supposed father on earth.
Now I ask anyone who views this differently to explain why.. But I think this all will help determine some question of the thread and how the Jewish heritage relates to Christ.
450donn - I think your question is best answered by examining at least two places in Scripture. I'll point them out below.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
First off, if you read Luke's account of John the Baptist, there's this exchange between John and the people of Israel in Ch 3. John comes out and begins to preach "a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." As the forerunner of Jesus, John was commissioned by God to prepare the people to receive Jesus as Messiah. But this people were steeped in a religious tradition that saw being Jewish as automatically being right with God. Moreover, because some among the crowd were Pharisees, he was forceful in message to address people's need for repentance. Two issues are at play here. The people he was addressing were presuming upon the grace and mercy of God by appealing to their religious fervor and to their Jewishness. They assumed because they kept their religious traditions and were children of Abraham, God was pleased with them. But John tells them not to presume upon their Jewishness but instead, repent and really take on the spirit of God's law which was to love your neighbor as yourself:
"He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, 'You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father"' For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.'
And the crowds asked him, 'What then shall we do?' And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”
When John tells them that God is able to raise up for himself children of Abraham from stones, it's his way of telling them that they aren't special. They aren't so great in the eyes of God that they are doing God a favor by being Jewish. Instead, he warns them of God's impending judgment if they do not repent of their sins. John is not impressed with their religiosity nor with their Jewishness and by extension, neither is God. The Jews here are in need of being confronted with the fact that their being Jewish does not qualify them for mercy...only repentance and good fruit out of that repentance is will carry any currency with God. God does not delight in religious tradition or piousness, but in a heart that longs to do the will of God in a good and honest way. That is the substance of John's message.
Paul also addresses the idea that not all Jews who are children of Abraham will receive the promises of God. Romans 9:
"For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
And her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'”
“And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
There they will be called 'sons of the living God.'”
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
We would have been like Sodom
And become like Gomorrah.”
Paul sees that there has always been a distinction throughout the history of Israel in relationship to God. God chose Israel to be his special people but in their history, they have largely been a nation who has hated and rejected God. Only a remnant of Israel has been saved throughout its generations. Because of their wickedness, God could have done away with them the same way he dealt with Sodom and Gomorrah. But in his mercy, he has spared some from destruction. This is the idea of election at play here.
The truth is that if God had not chosen to spare the Jews or any of us, we would all be destroyed. God's mercy and grace is truly great when you consider that all nations should be destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah, but God is a merciful and loving God, full of compassion.
We have to understand much better what Jesus means when He says that there is no other way to the Father than Him.
If this way starts from His incarnation then all those fathers of faith that lived before Him did not make it to the Father and that is not true.
Do not believe that the only begotten Son of God, appears on this earth only incarnated almost 2000 years ago.The Son is present from day one and before that.
Who was the one that appeared to Abraham?It was not the Father because no one can see God and live,so who did Abraham actually see?He saw the Son,The Word of God!
Who did Jacob see?He saw the Son.Who did Moses see?Who did Daniel see,who did Samson's parents see?Always the Son!
Who was leading the Jewish people in the desert?Who gave them the law?The Son!
What is written about the Son?It is written that He is the same,yesterday today and forever.
So, when there was no law,it was the Son that was the way to the Father for people like Abel,Enoch,Noah,Abraham,Isaak,Jacob...
When the law was given to the Jewish people by the Son,it was the Son that was the way to the Father because the law from the beginning to the end points out to the Son.
When the Word of God, the only begotten Son of God became flesh and dwelt among us,it was and still is Him that is the way to the Father!
450Donn, Some churches believe that generally speaking a devout Jew will be saved because the Jew (the more faithful the better) are God's chosen First Born.
However, it is my belief that the bible seems to speak differently about that.
Jesus is the way the truth and the life.
The bible does indicate that there will be a time when the Jew will come to Jesus.
Which Jews is the question.
Is it just those who will be alive at that time or something else.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Jeff... I do not have a rate button to push and wish that I did.
No one seems to be able to solve that problem for me.
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