Ask Me Help Desk - How to design a Genset room?

Im in a frustrated need of some information about designing a good genset room.
Im buying these 4 unit of 500kva diesel generator with specifications as the followings:

A Silent Type engine, 6 Cylinders, bore x stroke of 159x159mm, a dimension of 5(L)x1.8(W)x2.1m(H) while each of the engine weights at 4785kgs.

Considering the noise and heat possibly produces by the 4 engine working together, I'm considering of building a separated house for them. As informed by the salesman, those engine would produce a 75db of noise each.

Now my question here is, How do I design the layout for my genset house? Does a 21x8m with 4m height house enough for them to fit? What consideration must I take into account for the heat and noise it would produce?

Im writing this question caused I just watched a fire of a genset room under basement nearby.

Appreciate your time reading this long question and answering it with your best answers. Thanks... :cool:

Is that all?

Poof..

What you need to do is hire an engineering firm that handles the following disciplines:

Civil- to handle soil conditions for the weight of four units filled with fluids plus support equipment. Earthquakes?

Structural, specialty Concrete, these weigh tons floor must handle weight.

Structural, Specialty Steel for building to house units with enough space to handle mechanical equipment and electrical switch gear, and to support all piping and mechanical equipment, and sound attenuation. Also fuel storage, retainment fire supression.

Electrical- design appropriate transfer and distribution switchgear, control system, monitoring systems, fire alarm, power all mechanical equipment, lighting inside and out, communications.

Mechanical- design all piping and sheetmetal ducting for fuel, exhaust, fire suppression, air handling, cooling for engines.

The genset suppliers will have a great deal of data to share with enginerring, such as total filled weight, air intake for cooling, electrical ratings, minimum clearances.

Also, telling what country you are in would be a big help. :rolleyes: Things are just a bit different depending on where you are.

Thanks much for the answers... but I haven't get the answers I'm looking for to solve my problem... anyway, as some additional information is...

I come from a little undeveloped country, Indonesia. The location of the plant would be in Sulawesi island, a bit far from civilization. Looking for a contractor as well as engineers might cost me prices I might not able to afford, buying those units themselves has already cost me my fortune.

I'm searching on information about avoiding them overheat during operation, as well as avoiding the sound to be too noisy that could pollute environment. The genset house I planned is somewhere nearby beach, about 40 m far from the beach line. Earthquakes are minim in the location, while after I made the calculation with the genset salesman, I got some information of it will be around 100 degrees Celsius of room temperature, and the overall sound it will caused is about 300 db, means the sound of a jet plane inside the room.

What must I do? Any materials you might know to make them correct in installing those gensets? Thanks in advance... appreciate the information you share, thanks... :D

I gave the best answer you can expect from a free ask question website that mostly deals with do it yourselfer homeowner problems in North America.

Myself and a couple of other electricians here can wire these units, but as far as giving any info on designing an enclosure, not so much.

You need professional advice for cooling these units, esp located near the Equator with ambient temps so high.

If the area is so isolated why the need for an enclosure? Could just a roof work?

Being so close to the ocean, any issues with fuel leaks? Environmental issues?

Perhaps it may be better to have each unit, or maybe no more than two units in one building to help with temperature and sound?

Is Geo-Thermal cooling a possibility?

Perhaps just buying these units without any consideration of planning, engineering, and installation was a bit premature?

In any case we cannot help you here in the Electrical & Lighting Forum with how to cool and soundproof these units.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkrussell

I gave the best answer you can expect from a free ask question website that mostly deals with do it yourselfer homeowner problems in North America.

Myself and a couple of other electricians here can wire these units, but as far as giving any info on designing an enclosure, not so much.

You need professional advice for cooling these units, esp located near the Equator with ambient temps so high.

If the area is so isolated why the need for an enclosure? Could just a roof work?

Being so close to the ocean, any issues with fuel leaks? Environmental issues?

Perhaps it may be better to have each unit, or maybe no more than two units in one building to help with temperature and sound?

Is Geo-Thermal cooling a possibility?

Perhaps just buying these units without any consideration of planning, engineering, and installation was a bit premature?

In any case we cannot help you here in the Electrical & Lighting Forum with how to cool and soundproof these units.

what does geo-thermal cooling means? I have made the purchase for these units, though it would take me time of about 6 months later for the delivery until it reach my place. So, for the time being, I'm considering options to build the genset house which i do believe it would take no more then 3 months. I really appreciate friends here helping me out with this problem, especially tkrussel, thank you for the info u give... and also to others... cheers... thank you very much all of you.

the problem with the units got to be put together is that i have no more place / land area others then those 21 x 8m... other area surround owned by the country. Meanwhile, the need of enclosure in the area is that we don't want to pollute the rain forest surrounding our area while we need to build this conveyors to deliver our products to the jetty just about 4km away from our farm area, which is at the beach side. This is why i need to understand the sound attenuator thing as well as the soundproofing thing before we build the genset house, its for environment reason.

for the fuel leakage, we have solved the problem if the genset house built. Other problems might occur during the operation, so we have to have an operator living at the site, while operating our genset as well as for security reason from threatened which might happen from unwanted wild animals.

Quote:

I gave the best answer you can expect from a free ask question website that mostly deals with do it yourselfer homeowner problems in North America.

answering this statement... i really appreciate the time and effort from members here that would help me with my problem. The thing is i just can't afford no more to pay the professional consultant, as they really charged me much more then i can afford. Anyway and once again THANK YOU :)

I see you acknowledge some of the issues I raise, and more.

If you need to do this on your own, you have some researching to do.

Geothermal cooling may or may not be an option for you. Heat is transferred to in the ground or, I was thinking , perhaps a body of water, since your so close to the ocean, to dissipate unwanted latent heat. I doubt this would be allowed here in the USA, what with all the environmentalists.

This is just one of many explanations of geothermal theory:
http://fli.hws.edu/pdf/GEOTHERMAL%20...%20COOLING.pdf

Begin doing a web search for geothermal cooling.

You can also do search for soundproof construction.

I and many others here are only electricians. We do not have any experience with cooling generators in the Equator. We have one gentleman from Florida, perhaps he can offer some assistance.

We do not know what building materials you have available, or costs to ship into your location. Any structure you build not only needs to be sound proof rated to handle the ambient sound of the machines, plus must be able to withstand the wind that prevails in your area.

I have to ask why four 500 KVA gensets? That is a hell of a lot of power!

Perhaps the supplier or manufacturer can assist with designing a housing structure?

I understand the money issue, just that would have been good to think of all the issues to deal with before buying the units.

Tkrussel... thank you very much for the link...

I'm learning much these days about the issues... as I posted before, the 4 units of 500kva genset is use to run a 4km conveyors to transport our produce to the beach, so that we can save on road building as well as other vehicle costs to transport them to the beach. We had learned that these option is the most cost efficient way to get our produces to the ship when it comes to take our product for exporting.

We are financially ready to pay for materials from other places worldwide as we bought those generators from USA. This make it takes a 6 month shipping.

I'm still searching through the net for more information about the sound and heat attenuation. ;)

Finally, again... I on behalf of my people in the village (additional information there are 124 families) really appreciate your kind attention. THANK YOU. :cool:

If this is all true, You just won my heart,

Quote:

Originally Posted by mailyose

tkrussel...

We are financially ready to pay for materials from other places worldwide as we bought those generators from USA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mailyose

Finally, again... i on behalf of my people in the village (additional information there are 124 families) really appreciate your kind attention. THANK YOU. :cool:

On two counts at least.

New rule, everyone tell their story before asking questions.

Thanks, now I feel like a real butthole. What is Indonesian for rear end?

I sure wish I was of more help. I am well aware of the issues to deal with, but can't spit out answers off the top of my head.

This really is a complicated situation. You truly do sound as if you want a good, not extravagant, but reasonable installation, one that will last and not be offending to the neighborhood.

Send me the specifications make and model numbers on the machines. Let me see what your dealing with. I can at least direct you somewhere once I see the data you have.

You should see a local cooling contractor with the CFM of air and BTU's of heat to be extracted of each unit, see what is typical method of cooling that much heat in your area, with local temperatures.

Any government building codes?

If you have a choice, locate downwind of the prevailing winds, will help with the sound and the exhaust.

Before i go forward, a happy and great thankfulness for all your attention and help... little or much, i would really appreciate them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stratmando

If you have a choice, locate downwind of the prevailing winds, will help with the sound and the exhaust.

thanks for your suggestion stratmando, i am more aware about the prevailing winds right now, that it might also effect on the heat temperature as well as the direction the wind goes if i blow out the exhaust to the air. The site location would be likely like the followings:

Quote:

In the mid-latitudes, westerly winds are the rule and their strength is at the mercy of the polar cyclone. In areas where winds tend to be light, the sea breeze/land breeze cycle is the most important to the prevailing wind;

wikipedia
the exact coordinate is: -5.551180, 119.925384
Bantaeng Regency, South Sulawesi, Indonesia.
and the farm land coordinate is: -5.550032,119.922176

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkrussell

If this is all true, You just won my heart,
What is Indonesian for rear end?

i am happy that i got your attention and are more then happy that your willing to share your attention as well as knowledge, not really wanted to meant it this way, as time goes, i have collected much more information over the internet... thanks to who ever invented this incredible facility of human kind... like the way we can communicate here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkrussell

I am well aware of the issues to deal with, but can't spit out answers off the top of my head.
You truly do sound as if you want a good, not extravagant, but reasonable installation, one that will last and not be offending to the neighborhood.

now you really understand what i am looking for; nice. Much or less, any additional information that might help me out with this issues will and have been very much appreciated. No need to bother u too much, i just need some information regarding heat and noise attenuation. If u do have, and we really don't want to trouble too much, especially for a kind hearted person like u do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Send me the specifications make and model numbers on the machines. Let me see what your dealing with. I can at least direct you somewhere once I see the data you have.

Just direct me to somewhere that u know they can give me information regarding this, that's all the most appreciated help if you are available. OK? Thanks before...

here is the specification data:
Click to open pdf, right-click -> save link as to download pdf spec sheet.
http://www.dieselgenerators.com/libr...s/cummins2.jpg
Engine Type - QSX15 - G8
Brand - CUMMINS
Cylinder - 6
Bore x Stroke - 137 x 169 mm
Piston Disposal - 15000 Litre
Fuel Consumption - 103 Litre / Hour
Oil Capacity - 103 Litre

Alternators - STAMFORD
Approximate Dimension - 5000 (L) x 1800 (W) x 2050 (H) mm
Approximate Weight - 4770 Kg
Fuel Tank Capacity - 600 Litre

Exhaust Temperature - 488 degree Celsius
Exhaust Air Flow - 1255 litre / second
Exhaust back pressure max. - 76mm Hg
Radiator Air Flow - 10.44 m3 / second
Engine Air intake - 540 Litre / second

Minimum Air opening to room - 2.81 m2
Minimum Discharge Opening - 1.87 m2
Pusher fan head ; duct allowance - 13 mm Wg
Heat Radiated by engine - 33 kWm
Cummins QSX15G8 coupled to Stamford alternator.
Sound Level: 85dB(A) @ 1m
Durable workhorse, suit prime power applications

While the local condition is as the followings:
Temperature: 18 to 32 degree Celsius
Altitude: 3 metre above sea level
Relative Humadity: UNKNOWN (i dont have the meter to check this one out yet)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkrussell

You should see a local cooling contractor with the CFM of air and BTU's of heat to be extracted of each unit, see what is typical method of cooling that much heat in your area, with local temperatures.

Any government building codes?

I went to the city before ending up searching information from internet. I have to pay very expensive just to hear them telling lies, they call themselves consultant; i don't believe with what they say to me, they are asking too much money from us.

so here i am... I am the contractor myself, that's why I'm turning upside down these few days searching for more information about this issue before i start with the work. Strong people are ready to work together whenever i have the information and material ready. The ladies are helping with food need for our working energy. Even children will help with whatever they can. I strongly believe that we can make this building done in good. I strongly believe that we can make this generator sets 4 unit running smoothly without harming the nature with noise and smoke as well as the heat.

Rules and codes are for people from the city; in this village, we work for ourself, cook for ourself, farm for ourself... we need no certifications and nothing else, as long as we can make the job done; that's what we concern about beside still taking into concern about our environment. Caused we live in this nature, and we want to live for a longer time.
This is why the forest is also important to us... by not disturbing them, they would not disturb us, and let us live in peace for another much more day.

tkrussel;
thank you again for your kind attention and the knowledge your willing to share. :o

I will look this over next week, I am being called away on a family issue to deal with new few days.

As I think of it, this machine has it's own heat extractor, the fan behind the radiator. Just let the unit extract the heat out into the atmosphere. I can't imagine any other way, without getting into mechanical cooling equipment, such as cooling towers, or refrigeration compressors.

While the noise of the engine can be contained by a sound proof room, 85 dB is not too bad to deal with. There may be more noise from the cooling fan, whichcannot be quieted unless there is separate cooling machine.

Try posing this question at Eng-Tips Forums, see what you get for answers.

Otherwise I will get back to this next week. Best I can do for now.

Had a few moments to search, found this on cooling ;

http://www.cumminspower.com/www/lite...30_p93-115.pdf

You are going to want to install each genset in it's own sea container that has a day tank within the container. To be environmentally safe the tank needs to have a containment basin. You will want to have an external tank that supplies fuel to each daytank. It will need it's own pad. Every generator manual has a guidline for how big the louver will need to be for the intake and the exhuast air from the rad fan (generally the intake is 1.5 times bigger than the exhaust). Bc you are in a hot area, your gensets will be derated, that's all we do in austire environments where temps get up to 105 degrees farinheit or 42 Celsius. Your Rad will take care of the engine temp. You can use an exhaust fan to control the temperature inside your container. Diff mufflers will give you better sound attn. and you can get insulation for the whole exhaust system witch will cut down on heat. In my experience you do not want to cover the flex pipe or the turbo with this material. One reason is they can overheat, and the turbo will be rebuilt or replaced as part of the gen sets maintenance. You can get sync sensing breakers and place them on each genset if you need to run the units in parallel. That will cut the need of multiple transfer switches. Use a high voltage alternator on each engine and transform the final voltage at site to cut down on voltage drop and expensive conductor. If your gensets don't have isolation dampaners installed on their skid you will need to get them on your mounting surface. The skids in our containers are ussually 1/2 inch thick flat stock and 3 inches wider/5 inches longer than the generator skid. You will need a step down transformer in each container for house power if you use a high voltage alternator. The only circuits we run within the container are lights, power for our modulating louvers witch you don't need since you don't need to recycle heat into your container, Exhaust Fan, Control wiring for the genset, Conduit for generator output, Recepticles, Fire panel witch has a heat detector, break glass, outside strobe light and a smoke detector. We have a firematic valve in the fuel system so the genset shuts off during a fire. This valve has a wire holding it open witch will break in a fire causing the valve to close. Your exhaust will need to go through your wall so I recommend a min. 3 - 6 inch diamater around your exhuast pipe. Those are the major considerations I can think of off the top of my head to give you an idea of what you are looking to do. Keep in mind you can't run your DC control wires in the same conduit as your AC circuits.

Ok keep those things in mind but I just saw a picture of your genset... That is a quite site generator, it has it's own isolation dampaners on the inside. All you need to do is lay it in place and mount it to a concrete pad. I recommend the pad 6 inches wider than the unit on all sides and be reinforced with rehbar. The pad can be anywhere for 12 - 18 inches thick. If you want to parallel a cummins you need the 3100 controller and the proper syncing breaker (3200 might work). If you have the 2100 or any other you are going to need syncing equipment to parallel the units. It is very important that you ground the units proporley. If you don't someone can get really hurt if they touch the chasis and it has a fault... Good news is those units are meant for the outdoors and do not need a room.

4 x 500 kva with sound reach 300dB is not true.

I have already intall them at "Gaint Hypermarket Rajawali Surabaya" and get 80 dB