Ask Me Help Desk - Did the tetragrammaton appear in the Christian Greek scriptures?

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Originally Posted by homesell

there isn't an actual bible or New Testament Greek scholar alive that agrees "Jehovah" could possibly be inserted here instead of Lord. The main reason, being that the word "Jehovah" was taken from the tetramagon(4) JHVH (Hebrew had no vowels) and a 16th century monk inserted the vowels to make it a pronounceable word. (JeHoVaH)The original text does not contain the "JHVH" at any place in the new testament. Furthermore, the Hebrew language used a "Y" in place of the "J" and Jesus was the Greek form of "Yeshua

The manuscripts we have today from the Greek scriptures are not the originals. Those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Tetragrammaton with Ku′ri·os or Ky′ri·os, the Greek word for “Lord,” or copied from manuscripts where this had been done. Where is the proof you say?

Firstly look at the times Jesus quoted from the Old Testament eg: in Luke 4:16-21 to prove the prophesy of Isaiah 61:1,2 had been fulfilled he read directly from that scroll which contained the Tetragrammaton.

Secondly Jesus made God's name known (John 17:6, 26).

For a long time scholars thought the Tetragrammaton was not in the greek scriptures but in the mid 20th century some very old fragments of the Greek septuagint were discovered that had existed in Jesus day. What did they contain? The personal name of God written in Hebrew form.

Thirdly, the abbreviated name of God also appears in Rev 19:1, 3, 4, 6. Alleluia or Hallelujah literally means, "praise Jah you people", Jah being the shortened form of Jehovah.

So in reply to your comment

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there isn't an actual bible or New Testament Greek scholar alive that agrees "Jehovah" could possibly be inserted here instead of Lord.

many Bible translators have decided to restore the divine name to the New Testament in light of this evidence.

Some of the English translations of the New Testament using the divine name:
The Emphatic Diaglott
The Epistles of Paul in Modern English
The Christian's Bible—New Testament
The New Testament Letters

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

The manuscripts we have today from the Greek scriptures are not the originals. Those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Tetragrammaton with Ku′ri·os or Ky′ri·os, the Greek word for “Lord,” or copied from manuscripts where this had been done. Where is the proof you say?

Firstly look at the times Jesus quoted from the Old Testament eg: in Luke 4:16-21 to prove the prophesy of Isaiah 61:1,2 had been fulfilled he read directly from that scroll which contained the Tetragrammaton.

As you have acknowledged, there is no manuscript evidence supporting your contention. The ancient Jews avoided using the name of God directly, thus the reason that YHWH has no vowels and why we find that they used Adonai for God in the New Testament. Therefore your claim is simply assumption or speculation.

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Secondly Jesus made God's name known (John 17:6, 26).

Why don't you also point out that it is Jesus (Yeshua) who was given the name above every name.

Also, why not point out that when Jesus was addressing God the father in places such as the Lord's Prayer, He addressed Him as "Our Father", not by YHWH or Jehovah.

Why not also point out that Jesus is called God and "I AM" in the New Testament and "YHWH" in the Old Testament?

Is the point lost that the actual Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is in fact the Divine name of Almighty God, the Father? (which was recorded in the original manuscripts of the OT nearly 7,000 times)

The Jews had clearly rejected Jesus as God's son as is evident in the NT but the first Century Christians did not. This is no assumption, this has been recorded in the scriptures and their superstitious idea of leaving out the Divine name in worship was not copied by the first Century Christians either.

Jesus name is indeed above every other, because his father gave it to him. This in no way takes away from the Divine name which means "He who causes to become" just as the owner of a company would not be taking away his own authority by employing a manager to care for the business. The manager still answers to the owner right? So too Jesus still answers to his father, whose name is Divine, even though he has authority and power over the angels and mankind. (Matt 28:18)

Nowhere in the original manuscripts is God referred to as Jesus, a notion not even considered by the early Christians. Therefore when God is mentioned in the NT, it is naturally in reference to Jesus father, not Jesus himself, but this is a totally different subject and one I have commented on/discussed in the past, so I'll leave it there. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Is the point lost that the actual Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is in fact the Divine name of Almighty God, the Father? (which was recorded in the original manuscripts of the OT nearly 7,000 times)

And NEVER in the manuscripts (not one single manuscript) of the of the NT. Unless you are saying that God could preserve the OT accurately, but for some reason was incapable of preserving even a point in the NT which you deem to be essential.

As for the name - You mean the same name given to Jesus in the OT? And then after God the Son came to earth, humbled Himself in the flesh, the glory was restored to Him when we died, was resurrected and then returned to receive His glory as God once again?

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The Jews had clearly rejected Jesus as God's son as is evident in the NT but the first Century Christians did not.

This is not in dispute.

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This is no assumption, this has been recorded in the scriptures and their superstitious idea of leaving out the Divine name in worship was not copied by the first Century Christians either.

You ignored the fact that Jesus did not call the Father by YHWH. If yopu are right, would that not be a sin?

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Jesus name is indeed above every other, because his father gave it to him.

What is the name that is greater than EVERY OTHER name? That is the name that Jesus has. What is it?

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This in no way takes away from the Divine name which means "He who causes to become" just as the owner of a company would not be taking away his own authority by employing a manager to care for the business

.

That is not what YHWH means.

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The manager still answers to the owner right? So too Jesus still answers to his father, whose name is Divine, even though he has authority and power over the angels and mankind. (Matt 28:18)

He has power over more than that.

Col 1:16-18
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
NKJV

Note - ALL THING - be they visible or invisible. There is no limit to His power and authority.

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Nowhere in the original manuscripts is God referred to as Jesus, a notion not even considered by the early Christians.

Interesting way that you alter what I sai. I did not say that God was referred to as Jesus, I said Jesus as God, because Jesus is one person of the trinity. As for where Jesus is referred to as God in the NT (and yes, in the original manuscripts) here are but a few examples, some of which you have already been ignoring:

John 1:1-4
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV

Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
NKJV

And then this one:

John 8:24
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.
NKJV

The word "He" is not in the original manuscript. Rather than emphatic "I AM" (The same term used of God in the OT in the Septuagint) is used to describe Jesus. So what Jesus said is:

"I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

You must believe in Jesus as God to be saved.

John 10:31-39
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
NKJV

Here the Jews sought to kill Him for blaspheming because they knew that He was claiming to be God.

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Therefore when God is mentioned in the NT, it is naturally in reference to Jesus father, not Jesus himself, but this is a totally different subject and one I have commented on/discussed in the past, so I'll leave it there. :eek:

Really? Scripture says that no man has seen the father, so who was it that Adam walked in the garden with? Who was it that others in the OT saw when they saw God if not the Father?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Scripture says that no man has seen the father, so who was it that Adam walked in the garden with? Who was it that others in the OT saw when they saw God if not the Father?

There is sufficient importance in the indentity to each Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The proof of God is in 3 that are witness of One. We can not do away with these separate indentities because each are a huge part of all things.

Take Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

In this verse there are plural reference in "Let us" and "our " Then we have another reference of a likeness to both. It is not speculation to believe in 3 indentities within this verse of scripture. Father, Son, and their likeness of the Holy Spirit.

Your welcome to your own opinion...

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Originally Posted by sndbay

There is sufficient importance in the indentity to each Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The proof of God is in 3 that are witness of One. We can not do away with these separate indentities because each are a huge part of all things.

Take Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

In this verse there are plural reference in "Let us" and "our " Then we have another reference of a likeness to both. It is not speculation to believe in 3 indentities within this verse of scripture. Father, Son, and their likeness of the Holy Spirit.

Your welcome to your own opinion...

Hebrews 1:3... Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

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Originally Posted by sndbay

There is sufficient importance in the indentity to each Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The proof of God is in 3 that are witness of One. We can not do away with these separate indentities because each are a huge part of all things.

Take Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

In this verse there are plural reference in "Let us" and "our " Then we have another reference of a likeness to both. It is not speculation to believe in 3 indentities within this verse of scripture. Father, Son, and their likeness of the Holy Spirit.

Your welcome to your own opinion...

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I am in agreement with you that the fact that there are 3 persons, but one God is essential. That is why I was pointing out that the person of the trinity seen in the OT cannot be the father, but must be the Son.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I am in agreement with you that the fact that there are 3 persons, but one God is essential. That is why I was pointing out that the person of the trinity seen in the OT cannot be the father, but must be the Son.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

According to this verse, just as Christ has always said if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. In the bosom is, in front of the arms of the Father. So I am saying the Father is never absence from the Son. It is impossible to separate them, and yet they are each known by their own indentity.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

According to this verse, just as Christ has always said if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. In the bosom is, in front of the arms of the Father. So I am saying the Father is never absence from the Son. It is impossible to separate them, and yet they are each known by their own indentity.

However, the Son can be seen, but the Father cannot - that is the point.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

However, the Son can be seen, but the Father cannot - that is the point.

Truth is the point.. Faith in all that is written and spoken by the WORD/Jesus Christ

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Truth is the point.. Faith in all that is written and spoken by the WORD/Jesus Christ

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The question is - what are you trying to say - you are speaking in obscure comments. Are you denying the trinity? Are you denying that the Father cannot be seen? What are you trying to see? Stop beating around the bush and come right out and say what it is that you are supporting or opposing.

What I am saying is that we can not suggest that Our Father in Heaven was or is not in Christ as Christ was in HIS Father.

My belief in the trinity of One known to bear withness in heaven is as it is written ( 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one)

And I acknowledge here on earth the trinity of ONE is as it is written. ( 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one)

As scripture tells us the Father has not been seen, and I already gave evidence of that written. You agree..

Truth of this is FAITH in what Christ has foretold us. And while we live in the flesh we walk in Faith not by sight.
John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

We can no more say that Christ was not in HIS Father, and His Father in Him at all times. Jusk like here on earth, once someone is born of the spirit, would not say Christ does not dwell in them.

We are to walk in Christ as Christ is in us. Christ will not forsake us, nor would we deny HIM.

As Christ would never deny HIS Father in heaven, and Our Father trusted Christ. It is written in
Eph 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of HIS glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

If you believe then you receive that sealed Spirit of promise.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times HE might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him

~In Christ

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Originally Posted by sndbay

As scripture tells us the Father has not been seen, and I already gave evidence of that written. You agree..

This seemed to be what you were arguing against.

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We can no more say that Christ was not in HIS Father, and His Father in Him at all times. Jusk like here on earth, once someone is born of the spirit, would not say Christ does not dwell in them.

However, since bother Jesus and the Father are God and are each a person of the trinity, why would God need God indwelling Him?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

This seemed to be what you were arguing against.

No, not the point of not being seen, but the point of always presence and heard. Faith in what Christ told us.

Anyone can ask themself did Christ pray to the Father? Was Christ the WORD of truth for the Father? Was Christ the begotten Son of God?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

However, since bother Jesus and the Father are God and are each a person of the trinity, why would God need God indwelling Him?

I know I already example what Our Father said concerning Christ. You as well noted some of it in your quote earlier.. By verse 1:9 God is saying HE is also the God of Christ (thy God) has anointed Christ..

Hebrews 1:3-4-5-6... Who being the brightness of HIS glory, and the express image of HIS person, and upholding all things by the word of HIS power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Being made so much better than the angels, as HE hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For unto which of the angels said HE at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

And again, I will be to HIM a Father, and HE shall be to ME a Son?

And again, when HE bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, HE saith, And let all the angels of GOD worship HIM.

7-8-9....And of the angels HE saith, Who maketh HIS angels spirits, and HIS ministers a flame of fire.

But unto the Son But unto the Son HE saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore GOD, even thy GOD, hath anointed THEE with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(Luke 4:18 further reference)

Note these verses:
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of HIS Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

~In Christ

(1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God)

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Originally Posted by sndbay

No, not the point of not being seen, but the point of always presence and heard. Faith in what Christ told us.

You were responding to my point which was the fact that we can know that both Jesus and the father are two persons of the trinity, because God in the OT was seen in places, and since the Father cannot be seen, the person of the trinity seen must be Jesus.

I don't know exactly what you thought we were talking about. It is still not clear whether you are denying the trinity or not.