Ask Me Help Desk - Who are the sheep "not of this fold"?

Who are the sheep "not of this fold"?

Today's gospel lesson.
John 10: 11. I am the good shepherd:
The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep.

12. The hired man, since he is not the shepherd
And the sheep do not belong to him,
Abandons the sheep
As soon as he sees a wolf coming, and runs away,
And then the wolf attacks and scatters the sheep;

13. He runs away because he is only a hired man
And has no concern for the sheep.

14. I am the good shepherd;
I know my own
And my own know me,

15. Just as the Father knows me
And I know the Father;
And I lay down my life for my sheep.

16. And there are other sheep I have
That are not of this fold,
And I must lead these too.
They too will listen to my voice,
And there will be only one flock,
One shepherd.
<+><+><+>
Many believe that they are the gentiles as I do.
:confused:Who do you think are the sheep "not of this fold"?:confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

All the others other than the JEWS.
It was the Jews that were the chosen ones.
To my benefit and yours they relinquished this special right.

Thanks Roland,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ROLCAM said it right and I want to add to that, that in our time those sheep are all those people that we cannot even think about, or imagine that they could also welcome Christ.

I agree with all what is said here.

However, Lord Jesus calls "those sheep" too and those who listen to HIM, become HIS sheep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLCAM

All the others other than the JEWS.
It was the Jews that were the chosen ones.
To my benefit and yours they relinquished this special right.

Rolcam - I wonder if you could expound a little bit more on what you mean by "they relinquished this special right." I argue that the Jews are still God's chosen people and he intends to fulfill the promises he made to Abraham on behalf of the Jews, only that time has not yet come. Gentiles have not replaced the Jews as God's chosen people because according to Romans 11, Paul's argument is the opposite. God has not rejected his people but has merely chastened them for their murder and rejection of the Messiah. Consequently, through Israel's unbelief, God has extended his mercy and salvation to the Gentiles to make Israel a jealous nation... that they would be moved to come back to their God. The Gentiles have been grafted into the olive tree as branches. This is a metaphor for Gentiles being made a part of the redemptive plan of God that he has already begun in Israel as a nation... this why Gentiles are described as being grafted into the tree that had already been alive and grown.

And this is where we are presently at in the historical context of God's redemptive story. But the day will come where Israel will bow the knee to Jesus of Nazareth and honor him as their rightful king.

This is purely my opinion!

I believe that in the OLD TESTAMENT the
Jews occupied a preferential place in GOD'S
Estimation.
I have not said that they have lost this.
All I intimated that with the comomg of JESUS
Amongst us ,all of us now belong to this
Description. We are all the children of GOD.
I believe that I am one of GOD'S children
And I am NOT of Jewish descent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLCAM

This is purely my opinion !!

I believe that in the OLD TESTAMENT the
Jews occupied a preferential place in GOD'S
estimation.
I have not said that they have lost this.
All I intimated that with the comomg of JESUS
amongst us ,all of us now belong to this
description. We are all the children of GOD.
I believe that I am one of GOD'S children
and I am NOT of Jewish descent.

Fair enough, mate. I believe I know where you are coming from now. At first I thought you were saying that the Jews had relinquished their right to be God's people so I wanted to challenge that assumption. But I believe you are not making that assumption.

There is a vein of theology out there called Replacement Theology. I am not very well versed in this theology but I understand it enough. Its basic belief is that Israel no longer is God's people but the church has replaced Israel. There are many problems with this view in my opinion and the nature of Paul's argument in Romans 11 runs completely counter to those who hold to replacement theology. At its best, it's a shallow attempt to explain several of the things associated with Israel's rejection of Jesus as their Messiah—as it relates to their standing with God. At its worst, it is unabashed anti-Semitism and a gross misunderstanding of the purposes of God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Today's gospel lesson.
John 10: 11. I am the good shepherd:
the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep.

12. The hired man, since he is not the shepherd
and the sheep do not belong to him,
abandons the sheep
as soon as he sees a wolf coming, and runs away,
and then the wolf attacks and scatters the sheep;

13. he runs away because he is only a hired man
and has no concern for the sheep.

14. I am the good shepherd;
I know my own
and my own know me,

15. just as the Father knows me
and I know the Father;
and I lay down my life for my sheep.

16. And there are other sheep I have
that are not of this fold,
and I must lead these too.
They too will listen to my voice,
and there will be only one flock,
one shepherd.
<+><+><+>
Many believe that they are the gentiles as I do.
:confused:Who do you think are the sheep "not of this fold"?:confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Fred - I have to agree with you that it seems Christ is referring to Gentiles in this passage. Why I think so is at the end when he says "there will be only one flock, one shepherd." I believe the point is that the others he is referring to are different from this fold but when they come together, they will be one flock, with he as its shepherd. If the "other" were Jews, why would he make the point to say "there will be only one flock"? To a Jew, a Jew is a Jew, there'd be no distinction; no need to say they are all as one. A Jew would say "yeah, right...we're all Jews so why are you saying they will be one flock." But it is exactly as you say, Gentiles will be brought into this flock but Jesus will not separate them from the Jews, they will be one flock and he will lead them both.

jakester,
Thanks for that.
I agree.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLCAM

This is purely my opinion !! I believe that in the OLD TESTAMENT the Jews occupied a preferential place in GOD'S estimation. I have not said that they have lost this. All I intimated that with the coming of JESUS amongst us ,all of us now belong to this description. We are all the children of GOD. I believe that I am one of GOD'S children and I am NOT of Jewish descent.

Well, if this was a guess, it was a good one. St. Augustine taught nearly the same thing 1600 years ago, as did St. John Chrysostom about 100 years before that. This was a terrifying thought to the Jews, they were no longer covered by the law, but rather a new covenant. The Jews of the day required extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims. St. Chrysostom explains; “This if nothing else would persuade Me to love you, namely, your being so beloved by the Father, that I also am beloved by Him, because I die for you. Besides this He desires also to prove that other point, that He came not to the action unwillingly, (for it unwillingly, how could what was done cause love?) and that this was especially known to the Father. And if He speaks as a man, marvel not, for we have often mentioned the cause of this, and to say again the same things is superfluous and unpleasant.”

St. Augustine expands this further: “But perhaps someone thinks that, as He Himself came not to us, but sent, we have not heard His own voice, but only the voice of those whom He sent. Far from it: let such a thought be banished from your hearts; for He Himself was in those whom He sent. Listen to Paul himself whom He sent; for Paul was specially sent as an apostle to the Gentiles; and it is Paul who, terrifying them not with himself but with Him says, Do ye wish to receive a proof of Him who speaks in me, that is, of Christ? (2Corinthians 13:3) Listen also to the Lord Himself. And other sheep I have, that is, among the Gentiles, which are not of this fold, that is, of the people of Israel: them also must I bring. Therefore, even when it is by the instrumentality of His servants, it is He and not another that brings them. Listen further: They shall hear my voice. See here also, it is He Himself who speaks by His servants, and it is His voice that is heard in those whom He sends. That there may be one fold, and one shepherd. Of these two flocks, as of two walls, is the corner-stone formed. (Ephesians 2:11-22) And thus is He both door and the corner-stone: all by way of comparison, none of them literally.” Augustine, Tractate 47

JoeT

JoeT,
Thnaks very much for that.
It is an eye and mind opener.
Fred

Yep... the Gentiles. People in old testament times looked forward to the cross, we look back at it. Even in the old testament God said NO MAN shall be saved by the works of the Law. Old and new testament salvation is through faith in the grace, mercy, and lovingkindness of our great God.

homesell,
Yes, but I do not look back at the cross for it is with me yet today as is the man/God that died on it for me and all of us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Figure of speech Fred. The old Testament people had no idea of a cross. What I meant by that was that the old testament people by faith were looking forward to a time when all their sins were covered by the Messiah redeemer, kinsman, king, Lord. We look back at it in the sense that what Jesus did has already been done, "once for all"

I think that the sheep not of this fold are the people who are not under Gods umbrella. The people who aren't pure. Sheep are pure and the people who aren't are the "sheep not of this fold"

Pokerface5.
Thanks.
That's an interesting point of view.
Fred