Ask Me Help Desk - Did Jesus ask Judas to turn him in?

I am a firm believer in God. I believe Jesus was someone very special. I am not 100 percent sure he is the Messiah. I have allways thought that Judas turning Jesus in sounds to stupid to believe. Judas walked with Christ from the beginning. He ate,drank,walked and followed Jesus till almost the very end. He was either asked by Jesus himself or did not believe. There is just not enough money for someone in their right mind to turn the Son of God in for money when he faced certain eternal doom. As written in the last supper Jesus even told the Apostles he was aware of what was to happen. That would be enough to make me soil my pants if I were in Judas's shoes.I recently have been reading some writtings about the Gnostic Gospels. I heard something on TV about that Jesus himself asked Judas to turn him in to fulfill the profecy. That Judas hesitated but that in reality he was making the greatest sacrifies of all and that he would be despised by all mankind. In all honesty this makes sense. This also would be enough to make him hang himself as he did. I do not mean to offend anyone. I myself and not sure of anything. I figured some different point of views would help me with my faith.

My question would be, why would Judas agree to turn Jesus in, even if Jesus asked? Also, why wouldn't Jesus let others know that he requested this, that way Judas wouldn't have been hated, wouldn't have felt the need to hang himself.

It doesn't make sense, but, then, either do most things in the bible, so who knows?

No where that I have ever read in the Bible does it mention that Jesus asked Judas to betray him. Jesus betrayal was prophesied in the old testament on Ps22 and Is 53 and was part of Gods predestined plan of salvation Ac2.

Going to "tradition" and what you can read into the things happening,

All of the follows of Christ was still expecting a earthly kingdom and a earthly king, we see this though the entrance into the city before his capture, and we see this in the fact that no one believed he rose from the dead originally. We see Peter even denying knowing Christ.

So the thought is Judas once he saw the earthly kingdom falling apart, felt somewhat betrayed, I know that sounds funny.

The other though is that he wanted the earthly kingdom to come faster, he figured if he forced it to come to a head, Jesus would over turn the temple rulers and they would take power.

Can't prove either thought but that is some of the ideas taught

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

No where that I have ever read in the Bible does it mention that Jesus asked Judas to betray him. Jesus betrayal was prophesied in the old testament on Ps22 and Is 53 and was part of Gods predestined plan of salvation Ac2.

The Gnostic Scriptures is what I was making a reference to. I know this is not in the Bible. This question was really for someone that is looking outside the box.

Thanks for your input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

My question would be, why would Judas agree to turn Jesus in, even if Jesus asked? Also, why wouldn't Jesus let others know that he requested this, that way Judas wouldn't have been hated, wouldn't have felt the need to hang himself.

It doesn't make sense, but, then, either do most things in the bible, so who knows?

Very good points Alty. Why would he hang himself if he did not feel guilty by turning on Jesus and betraying him.

Jesus knew what was going to happen, I would say that Jesus new that when he was picking Judas as his disciple. That goes to show you that God has greater plans for us. No matter how we might see it. Or whether we understand it or not.

Each person has a role to play. One way or another.

Joe

Let's say because mankind does make mistake, and usually are known to fail in going their own way. The decision Judas made, and the decision Peter made in denying Christ was shown as shameful and regretable.

These events should never be judge by the hearts of others, we can acknowledge that we read that both Peter and Judas were aware of their mistake. And we can discern they were indeed mistakes we don't ourselves want to make.

Take an example of man, who saw daily the miracle of works that Christ did, the many times that Christ exampled power and strength to prove to HIS followers that God had the control to keep anyone well and safe.

Then take Judas's decision, the man who managed the money. He kept charge over money spent throughout his following in Christ. Judas is offered, by the scribes a way to earn money... (as a man making the decision, to gain money.) Perhaps Judas felt Christ could handle the scribes, after all there was nothing Christ did not know before it happened.. Judas knew full well that Christ never before, ever felt helpless, or unsafe in any risk of being weak before man.

What mistake did Judas make that man today can make? (1 Ti 6:10) money the root of all evil?

We acknowledge that Judas was decribed as being sorry, and that he was hung. We can not judge what was in his heart...

And ask yourself, what man can hang himself and also cut himself from neck to his lower bowels so that his insides are shown. Does it sound as if Judas could have had some help in his regretable mistake from start to finish, and some help in stopping a sorry man from telling others the truth.

Judas made the wrong decision.. Peter made the wrong decision.. And I think, we are shown those decisions, so that we are not ignorant in our own decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit1966

I am a firm believer in God. I believe Jesus was someone very special. I am not 100 percent sure he is the Messiah. I have allways thought that Judas turning Jesus in sounds to stupid to believe. Judas walked with Christ from the begining. He ate,drank,walked and followed Jesus till almost the very end. He was either asked by Jesus himself or did not believe. There is just not enough money for someone in their right mind to turn the Son of God in for money when he faced certain eternal doom. As written in the last supper Jesus even told the Apostles he was aware of what was to happen. That would be enough to make me soil my pants if I were in Judas's shoes.I recently have been reading some writtings about the Gnostic Gospels. I heard something on TV about that Jesus himself asked Judas to turn him in to fufill the profecy. That Judas hesitated but that in reality he was making the greatest sacrifies of all and that he would be despised by all mankind. In all honesty this makes sense. This also would be enough to make him hang himself as he did. I do not mean to offend anyone. I myself and not sure of anything. I figured some different point of views would help me with my faith.

The situation with the Gnostics is complicated. First one needs to remember that the Gnostics were docetists. Docetism is the view that the Word of God, the second Person of the Trinity, didn't really become a flesh-and-blood human being. Docetists believed that he only seemed to be human. (This is where the term "docetism" comes from: The Greek word for "seeming to be" is "dokein".) So, many Gnostics believed that Jesus Christ seemed to be a human being but wasn't really. This means that he didn't really die on the cross--he only seemed to suffer and die. It was all a kind of illusion.

Now, looked at from this point of view, Judas's turning Jesus over to suffer and die wasn't really a big deal, this for the reason that Jesus couldn't suffer and die because he wasn't really human. This takes a lot of the sting out of Judas's act of betrayal--again, looked at from the Gnostic point of view.

Second, most Gnostics believed that the real message Jesus was trying to communicate was the fact that we are all spiritual beings trapped in a physical body. Jesus came in the guise of flesh in order to show us the way to escape our corruptible bodies, and they interpreted his resurrection in light of this belief. As they saw it--or many of them, since there were lots of different schools of Gnosticism holding somewhat different views from one another--Judas was part of an elaborate illusion intended to teach the rest of us how to escape the flesh and become what we truly are, namely purely spiritual beings. By participating in this, Judas was helping Jesus, not hurting him. Also, some Gnostics believed that Judas was the only one of the twelve Apostles who really got it, who understood what Christ was really doing, that he wasn't really a human.

Many Gnostics believed that Jesus communicated secret teachings to Judas that he either did not communicate to the other Apostles, or that he did communicate to them but that they failed to understand. In other words, they believed that Judas "got it" and the others didn't. It's important to understand that part of what was going on here was that the Apostles condemned the Gnostics' teachings. Because of this, because the "official" group of Christians had condemned their teachings, the Gnostics claimed that they had access to secret teachings that weren't available to the Apostles and their followers. Some Gnostics claimed that these teachings came to them from secret writings of Judas, as well as from other sources other than the "official" teachings of the Twelve that were passed on orally and in the New Testament. The Gnostics saw the Apostolic Churches as rivals. But they also thought that the Apostolic Churches had failed to understand the true, secret, teachings of Christ.

So there is a lot to this story. There is also this complication: The Gospel account of Judas's death tells us that he hanged himself. But in Acts, it says that Judas died not by hanging himself but rather that he took a fall in a field and his intestines (or stomach) burst. So the New Testament gives two different accounts of the death of Judas and they don't agree. I mention this because this is exactly the sort of thing that the Gnostics could point to in order to say that the Apostles had tried to condemn Judas by deceiving us about the way he died, making it look like he was overcome by guilt for betraying Jesus. Of course, many Gnostics thought not that Judas betrayed Jesus but that he was the only one of the Apostles who truly understood Jesus.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Gnostics believed that the God of the Old Testament wasn't the same God Jesus spoke about in the New Testament. They believed that the God of the Old Testament was an evil God who trapped spiritual beings in material bodies destined to die and decay. As they saw it, the serpent who deceived Eve wasn't the devil: He was a great benefactor to humanity who helped us to learn spiritual truths that the evil creator God had sought to keep from us. So the Gnostics gad an elaborate theological system that was in competition with orthodox Christianity for centuries. In fact, some forms of Gnosticism have even made a comeback in recent years. I don't know if you've heard of Elaine Pagels, but she has advocated a kind of Gnosticism called Valentinianism, after it's founder Valentinus.

I hope this helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altenweg

My question would be, why would Judas agree to turn Jesus in, even if Jesus asked? Also, why wouldn't Jesus let others know that he requested this, that way Judas wouldn't have been hated, wouldn't have felt the need to hang himself.

It doesn't make sense, but, then, either do most things in the bible, so who knows?

The Book of Judas in the Gnostic gospels say's it was a command and he revealed all spiritual truth to him. Maybe judas was the only one that would follow through. How many people would help a loved one get killed. Not me.. Anyway this was just something I heard on the news months back so I purchased a Gnostic Gospels book because there are other books out there that never made it in the Bible. Info on the book of Judas can be found even Wikipedia. Some writtings such as the Gospel of St Thomas was used for the movie Stigmata.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

The situation with the Gnostics is complicated. First one needs to remember that the Gnostics were docetists. Docetism is the view that the Word of God, the second Person of the Trinity, didn't really become a flesh-and-blood human being. Docetists believed that he only seemed to be human. (This is where the term "docetism" comes from: The Greek word for "seeming to be" is "dokein".) So, many Gnostics believed that Jesus Christ seemed to be a human being but wasn't really. This means that he didn't really die on the cross--he only seemed to suffer and die. It was all a kind of illusion.

Now, looked at from this point of view, Judas's turning Jesus over to suffer and die wasn't really a big deal, this for the reason that Jesus couldn't suffer and die because he wasn't really human. This takes a lot of the sting out of Judas's act of betrayal--again, looked at from the Gnostic point of view.

Second, most Gnostics believed that the real message Jesus was trying to communicate was the fact that we are all spiritual beings trapped in a physical body. Jesus came in the guise of flesh in order to show us the way to escape our corruptible bodies, and they interpreted his resurrection in light of this belief. As they saw it--or many of them, since there were lots of different schools of Gnosticism holding somewhat different views from one another--Judas was part of an elaborate illusion intended to teach the rest of us how to escape the flesh and become what we truly are, namely purely spiritual beings. By participating in this, Judas was helping Jesus, not hurting him. Also, some Gnostics believed that Judas was the only one of the twelve Apostles who really got it, who understood what Christ was really doing, that he wasn't really a human.

Many Gnostics believed that Jesus communicated secret teachings to Judas that he either did not communicate to the other Apostles, or that he did communicate to them but that they failed to understand. In other words, they believed that Judas "got it" and the others didn't. It's important to understand that part of what was going on here was that the Apostles condemned the Gnostics' teachings. Because of this, because the "official" group of Christians had condemned their teachings, the Gnostics claimed that they had access to secret teachings that weren't available to the Apostles and their followers. Some Gnostics claimed that these teachings came to them from secret writings of Judas, as well as from other sources other than the "official" teachings of the Twelve that were passed on orally and in the New Testament. The Gnostics saw the Apostolic Churches as rivals. But they also thought that the Apostolic Churches had failed to understand the true, secret, teachings of Christ.

So there is a lot to this story. There is also this complication: The Gospel account of Judas's death tells us that he hanged himself. But in Acts, it says that Judas died not by hanging himself but rather that he took a fall in a field and his intestines (or stomach) burst. So the New Testament gives two different accounts of the death of Judas and they don't agree. I mention this because this is exactly the sort of thing that the Gnostics could point to in order to say that the Apostles had tried to condemn Judas by deceiving us about the way he died, making it look like he was overcome by guilt for betraying Jesus. Of course, many Gnostics thought not that Judas betrayed Jesus but that he was the only one of the Apostles who truly understood Jesus.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Gnostics believed that the God of the Old Testament wasn't the same God Jesus spoke about in the New Testament. They believed that the God of the Old Testament was an evil God who trapped spiritual beings in material bodies destined to die and decay. As they saw it, the serpent who decieved Eve wasn't the devil: He was a great benefactor to humanity who helped us to learn spiritual truths that the evil creator God had sought to keep from us. So the Gnostics gad an elaborate theological system that was in competition with orthodox Christianity for centuries. In fact, some forms of Gnosticism have even made a comeback in recent years. I don't know if you've heard of Elaine Pagels, but she has advocated a kind of Gnosticism called Valentinianism, after it's founder Valentinus.

I hope this helps.

Thanks Akoue. Your answer was very helpful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit1966

I am a firm believer in God. I believe Jesus was someone very special. I am not 100 percent sure he is the Messiah. I have allways thought that Judas turning Jesus in sounds to stupid to believe. Judas walked with Christ from the begining. He ate,drank,walked and followed Jesus till almost the very end. He was either asked by Jesus himself or did not believe. There is just not enough money for someone in their right mind to turn the Son of God in for money when he faced certain eternal doom. As written in the last supper Jesus even told the Apostles he was aware of what was to happen. That would be enough to make me soil my pants if I were in Judas's shoes.I recently have been reading some writtings about the Gnostic Gospels. I heard something on TV about that Jesus himself asked Judas to turn him in to fufill the profecy. That Judas hesitated but that in reality he was making the greatest sacrifies of all and that he would be despised by all mankind. In all honesty this makes sense. This also would be enough to make him hang himself as he did. I do not mean to offend anyone. I myself and not sure of anything. I figured some different point of views would help me with my faith.

I agree with you, I use to be a devoted "christian" but have denounced that faith for so many reasons. Now I am just a believer. I do believe in God. I also believe in jesus but I don't think he is the son of God and I don't see him as my lord and saviour. Now these gospels that you referring to are they the gospels of Thomas? I saw on the discovery channel that they where recently discovered and the really contradict a lot of what the first 4 books of the new testament document.

Since they have been discovered I wonder why they have not been but into newer versions of the bible? My thought is that they contradict a lot of what the church has BRAINWASHED us to believe(i.e jesus is our lord and saviour, god the father, son, almighty etc.).

My thought's on jesus is that he was an extraordinary human being, a role model to what we aspire to be, to me he was a great prophet, possibly the greatest that has ever lived. I know a lot of you will disagree with my post and its just my opinion that's all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lighterrr

I agree with you, i use to be a devoted "christian" but have denounced that faith for so many reasons. Now i am just a believer. I do believe in God. I also believe in jesus but i don't think he is the son of God and i don't see him as my lord and saviour. Now these gospels that you referring to are they the gospels of Thomas? I saw on the discovery channel that they where recently discovered and the really contradict a lot of what the first 4 books of the new testament document.

Since they have been discovered i wonder why they have not been but into newer versions of the bible? My thought is that they contradict a lot of what the church has BRAINWASHED us to believe(i.e jesus is our lord and saviour, god the father, son, almighty etc.).

My thought's on jesus is that he was an extraordinary human being, a role model to what we aspire to be, to me he was a great prophet, possibly the greatest that has ever lived. I know a lot of you will disagree with my post and its just my opinion thats all.

The Gospel of Thomas is one of the books. The book of Judahs I heard about in the news. This drew my attention. So I purchased a few books. You could find some info on it on Wikepedia on the internet. It actually listed as the book of Judas. Your beliefs seem similar to mine. I grew up Catholic weekdays and was a Protestant on Sunday's . Tell me that doesn't sound crazy. That's how I was brought up. Thanks for your response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit1966

The Gospel of Thomas is one of the books. The book of Judahs I heard about in the news. This drew my attention. So I purchased a few books. You could find some info on it on Wikepedia on the internet. It actually listed as the book of Judas. Your beliefs seem similar to mine. I grew up Catholic weekdays and was a Protestant on Sunday's . Tell me that doesn't sound crazy. That's how I was brought up. Thanks for your response.

Spirit I am so glad to read your post. Here's a little history on me, baptized @ 3 months Roman Catholic, went to catholic school my entire life. Did the whole catholic thing, first communion, grade 8 confession etc.

But what got me out of the church was that it really didn't make any sense to me anymore. I found kaballah its not a religion its about an individuals relationship with the one and only creator GOD. Since I found it I believe the truth of my life and purpose on this earth has been revealed. Honestly I think some of the greatest kaballist where men in the bible, Abraham was the first of course and Jesus I think was the greatest kabballist that ever lived.

Its funny everyone thinks because I believe in jesus I should accept him as my lord and saviour and when I tell them I don't them can't understand. People seem to think its either you believe and accept jesus or you don't.

Well I fall in the middle cause I believe he lived and he was an extra ordinary man, but he is not my Lord and saviour!