I have two outside faucets, both frost-free hydrants (vertical pipes with actuator valve below the frost line, and check valve to drain the riser pipe when off), that have been trouble free for the 4 years we have lived here. This morning, my better half turned on the one in the barn and no water. Later in the day she tried the one that is about 75 yards farther out, on the same line as far as I know. No water. When I got home from work, I verified water working correctly in the house (we are on a well), and then went out and tried the hydrants. The one in the barn spewed some high pressure air and then water poured out as normal. The hydrant farther out worked fine too. An hour later, my spouse tried to use the barn hydrant and no water? When turned on, you can hear a little bit of air, then it is silent. There is no evidence of a pipe break underground, and no sound of water running in the house (like you would normally hear). Temperatures have been well above average (50s, 60s, 70s) during the day the last few weeks, sometimes below freezing at night. At first I thought maybe the primary feed had frozen, shutting off the two hydrants, but it has been too warm, and why did they work when I got home and then stopped working again an hour later? I am stumped. Any suggestions on how I can troubleshoot this issue? To make it even more complicated, I cannot find where the outside hydrants are tied into the house plumbing.

Thanks in advance for any help.


Additional info.
Now I am getting a water hammer or kerchunk-kerchunk-kerchunk noise at or near the system pressure tank whenever the well pump shuts off. The pressure switch operation seems normal, 30psi on, 50psi off, pressure holds at 50psi unless water is used. The kerchunk occurs right after the pump turns off, and it is not from the pump cycling (pressure switch contacts are open).

Let's check the bladder tank. There are several ways to check your tank. It has a air valve on top like a valve on a tire. Push it in, you should not get any water out of that valve at all. Another way is to tap the tank from the bottom up. You will hear a "clunk" on the bottom filled with water, however you should hear a "clang" near the top filled with air. If you have water up to the top the bladder has ruptured and the tank must be replaced. To set the air pressure in a bladder tank, look at the cut-in pressure on your pressure switch. Now drain the line down with the pump off. When there is no more water coming out of the hose bib that you drained the system down with set the pressure in t6he bladder tank at 2 lbs. below the cut-in pressure. Check it with a tire gage. If your pressure control is set to come on at 20 PSI and go off at 40 PSI then your gage should read 18 PSI. Hope this helps and thank you for rating my reply.

For your original problem, I would suggest going out yourself to check for water at the hydrants when your better half comes in and says there no water. Its not that I don't trust her, its just that she may be not turning on the hydrant fully. If you go out and find no water then we will look into this further. You will always here a bit of air when first turning on the hydrant, because the standpipe of the hydrants drains down when the hydrant is shut off. Then when you turn it on, the water pushes out the air in the standpipe, this should only take about a second when hydrant is turned fully on.

One other thing to try. When your better half finds no water at hydrants, tell her to run into the house as quickly as possible and see if there is water in the house. We need to take this one step at a time, and I hope we can get you fixed up. Please let us know what you find. We are here to help.

Thanks speedball1 and mygirlsdad77.

Checked the tank, no water came out of the air valve, but pressure was a little low (25psi vs 28psi for 30psi cutout) so I added some air.

I determined the kerchunk was the check valve next to the tank. Pulled it off and the valve was loose in the valve body. Replaced it and thought I would be good to go, but still no water at the barn (or other hydrant).

Mygirlsdad77, funny you would suggest that; my first action after getting home with the bad plumbing news was to check the water in the house (OK) and then go try the water in the barn. Both hydrants worked when I tried them, both obviously had a lot of air in the lines. But an hour later, they were not working again.

I'm still stumped. Maybe the bad check valve was unrelated? I still haven't located the feed from the house water to the barn and other hydrant, and I am even wondering if maybe I have two wells. There are two vertical PVC pipes in the yard, one 4" the other 6"; however, I know there is no other pump controller on the property (unless it's in the pipe).

First, to check if hydrants are on the same well as the house, simply shut power off to house well, drain off pressure in house then go see if hydrants are off too. The hydrants were most likely tied into house supply underground. If you could locate the previous owners of the property, they may be able to give you some helpful input as to how water system is laid out.

Are the hydrants working now, or have you had more problems with them. This sounds like an intermittant problem. May take some time to figure out exactly what is happening.

First need to figure out if house is on same well as hydrants(most likely are). Please let me know what you find, good luck, and ill be here to try and help.

The property has two well permits, but both are too old to have details online. I will be requesting a paper search from the state. I have determined the barn and pasture hydrants are on the same well, fed from the house (not that I know exactly where the feed is). Two items of interest; 1. If I backfeed the barn hydrant by connecting a hose to a house spigot, I can get both hydrants to work, after disconnecting the house spigot. They work until I turn them off for 30 to 60 seconds. 2. I've been monitoring the pressure gauge by the tank. Pump kicks on at 30, off at 50, but I've noticed that when it kicks on at 30, the pressure holds at 30 for 5-7 seconds, then drops close to zero before slowly climbing to 50. I was thinking that the check valve by tank opens, water then flows backwards to the well, leaving air in my hydrant lines. Of course, the check valve at the tank should prevent backward flow, so I am still puzzled. Perhaps the barn/pasture hydrants are tied in between the well and check valve? One other item, checking newer well permits in the area (that have online data) shows wells in this area are 300 +/- 10 feet. What would cause the pressure to drop to almost zero after the pump kicks in?

Is this a submesible pump, or above ground pump? If sub, then the pump itself should have a check vavle on it. Do you notice any air in the house water system?

I don't have documented well information (I've requested a copy of the permit and well data from the state) but the pump is a submersible, based on the control box info and other observations (well depth, power wire running down from the well head). I have noticed air in the house water system, but only after the multiple tank drainings and refillings. The air is gone and does not return after each fixture is run for a little while. But I also get significant air out of the barn hydrant (more than the vertical pipe could hold) after backfilling to get it to run temporarily.


I have a theory, requiring some assumptions. Yesterday I determined that the barn and pasture hydrants work, but only when the well pump is on. My theory: Well was drilled in 1978 when the house was built. No well construction report was filed (well company owner died before filing, widow sold company). Assumption 1 - pump was installed with foot valve at the pump AND a check valve at the tank. Assumption 2 - sometime between 1978 and 1995, the check valve at the tank failed (when I took it off due to the kerchunk issue, it was gummed up and the spring was missing). Assumption 3 - New homeowners in 1995 built the barn and installed the barn and pasture hydrants. They connected the hydrants somewhere outside underground to the pipe between the pump and the in-house tank. Since the check valve at the tank was broken (or perhaps intentionally disabled), this setup worked fine. Assumption 4 - last week the foot valve at the pump failed. The new check valve I installed results in the pipe between the well and the tank being pressurized only when the pump is on, therefore leading to intermittent operation of the hydrants.
New question - how do I locate the connecting point for the hydrants? I want to confirm my theory, and if it is correct, cap that connection and reroute the hydrant connection to the other side of my new check valve.

Sounds like a good theory. As far as locating tie in under ground, this may be very difficult. If you want to reroute hydrants, you could just dig them up, cap the existing supply line, and dig a new trench to tie in the hydrants where you want to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mygirlsdad77

sounds like a good theory. as far as locating tie in under ground, this may be very difficult. If you want to reroute hydrants, you could just dig them up, cap the existing supply line, and dig a new trench to tie in the hydrants where you want to.

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Yeah, I guess that would be easier than digging random holes. I will check with the county to see if the permit paperwork for the barn includes any info on the hydrant routing that might be useful. I suppose my other option would be to replace the pump (as far as I know it is original, 30 years old) and remove my new check valve at the tank, and then leave the digging for a future project. I don't suppose pulling a pump out of a 300 foot well is a do-it-yourself project?

Does anybody have good (or bad) experience with underground utility locator services, or underground leak detection services? I found a spot in the yard with evidence of a leak, but after digging 4 feet down, I still have not found the pipe.

Is it getting wetter as you dig? Depending on where you live 4' may just not be enough to get below the frost line.

No, not getting wetter as I dig deeper. I can see stratification of the soil layers (mostly sand), and some of the layers seem damp, but I can't tell if it's from the precipitation we have recently received or from the "probably" leaky pipe. I'm not sure of the pipe location.

After a 4-5" snowfall last Sunday night, the yard was evenly blanketed in white, except for this dig location, where there was a 4 to 5 foot diameter circle of bare, wet ground.

Just a follow-up on resolution. After some more experimentation (and too much digging) and careful listening at the wellhead with the pump running and off, I had the well company come out and pull the pump. The well had a single check valve, located directly above the pump, which still operated correctly. But the couplings between sections of well pipe were galvanized steel (installed in 1978) and at least one of them was rusted through in spots, allowing drainback when the pump was off. About $2200 later I have new stainless steel pipe couplings, a new check valve just below the pitless adapter, new pump wire, a new pump (replacing the 30 yr old pump) and water at the barn, which makes the boss happy.

Glad you got it fixed. Sometimes it worth the extra money to know you have a system that should last for years and years.