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  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:15 AM
    ETWolverine
    The end of commerce
    Hello folks.

    We are seeing the beginning of the end of thousands of years of history taking place in America today. The end of commerce as it has been practiced since before the birth of Jesus.

    Commerce, by its very nature, is based on the inviolability of contracts. People make contracts (written or otherwise) and they gain from each side holding up their end of the contract. If one side or the other violates the contract, the system breaks down and the transaction is unable to be completed. Often this ends up in front of courts whose job it is to uphold the contracts and enforce them. In cases where the contract cannot be enforced, damages occur, and one side or the other loses something as a result of the failure of the contract. That is how business works.

    The basis for that whole system of trade is the inviolability of the contract. Without that assumption, there can be no commerce, because who would trust someone to fulfill their side of the bargain if contracts were not inviolable. If anyone could break a contract at any time without any penalty, loss, etc. there would be not trust between trust partners. Commerce REQUIRES that contracts be honored to the letter.

    What I have been hearing recently from our government disturbs me greatly, because what I have been hearing about is that contracts should no longer be considered binding and inviolable.

    Take the recent news with AIG. According to some members of our government, the contracts that AIG made with their employees for bonuses should no longer be binding. Regardless of whether you believe that the compensation of the employees was excessive or not, they were based on legally binding contracts. Yet certain high-ranking government officials want to eliminate those contracts as being binding.

    Another example: Congress has recently been talking about giving courts the legal power to revise mortgage contracts at whim, or even dismiss the contracts completely. In other words, if someone walks into court and says that they can't afford their mortgage payments, a judge would have the authority to change the interest rate, amortization shcedule or any other part of the contract they want to change, regardless of what that would do to the lender. The contracts would no longer be binding.

    If these things come to pass, it will end commerce as we know it. If contracts are no longer binding, then there can be no trust between business partners. Without trust, the commerce system cannot function.

    Without commerce, we all go back to herding sheep and cattle for a living... and not even that good a living, because we won't be able to trade for more sheep and cattle. Farmers won't be able to sell their produce. Loggers won't be able to contract for shipments of wood. Forget employment contracts, nobody will trust an employer to pay what they promise to pay without a system where contractual agreements are honored.

    Without contracts, EVERYTHING ceases to exist. Without contracts there are no businesses. Without business, there is no technology. Without technology, we cannot survive as a modern society. There will be no medicines... who would produce medicines in mass quantities if they aren't sure they are going to get paid for their products.

    It would be the end of everything.

    Even a nuclear war wouldn't cause this level of devastation. Survivors of a nuclear holocaust would continue to trade with each other if they knew that they could trust each others' contractual agreements. Eventually, society could rebuild itself after a nuclear holocaust.

    Only the end of commerce could be so devastating, because there is no way for society to recover without the basic trust necessary in commerce. Eliminate that trust and society falls.

    Scary thought, huh.

    Elliot
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:25 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Commerce, by its very nature, is based on the inviolability of contracts. People make contracts (written or otherwise) and they gain from each side holding up their end of the contract. If one side or the other violates the contract, the system breaks down and the transaction is unable to be completed.

    Hello El:

    I agree. Contracts are sacrosanct. That's how it works here in the good 'ol USA.

    But, that would include the auto workers too, wouldn't it? Why is it that rich guys contracts are inviolable, but a working stiffs contract can be voided? You guys don't want it both ways, do you? I think you do.

    excon
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:49 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello El:

    I agree. Contracts are sacrosanct. That's how it works here in the good 'ol USA.

    But, that would include the auto workers too, wouldn't it? Why is it that rich guys contracts are inviolable, but a working stiffs contract can be voided?? You guys don't want it both ways, do you? I think you do.

    excon

    I have never said that the agreements with the unions shouldn't be honored. They HAVE to be honored. They're bad contracts, but they are legal and binding.

    However, the result of honoring the contracts is the loss of jobs when the company goes bankrupt. Therefore it is in the best interests of all parties to renegotiate the contracts. Renegotiation isn't violation of the contracts, it is just an adjustment of the terms of the contract, and it happens all the time, usually in the interests of both parties.

    The unions don't have to agree with a renegotiation. That is fully within their rights under the current contract. They can force the companies to pay out the contracts until the contracts run out. In the process, they can cause the companies to go under, create a massive loss of jobs, and make their own situations worse.

    So... you're a union employee. You are getting paid twice the market rate for your work. Your boss comes to you and says, "You can either take a pay cut and work at market rate, or we can lay you off due to lack of ability to pay you."

    Which do you choose. You COULD force them to maintain your salary level.

    Personally, I'd choose to renegotiate, especially in a bad economy where work is scarce.

    Renegotiation. That is what the talks between the auto companies and the unions is all about... renegotiation of the terms of the contracts in the best interests of all parties. Nobody is violating the union contracts. The auto companies are simply asking the unions to consider different terms. So far, the unions haven't budged on the biggest issues. And nobody is forcing them to through the "legal disolusion" of the contracts by the government or the courts. Nobody is holding any guns to anyone's head.

    That's the difference between what the auto companies are seeking from the unions and what Congress is seeking to do with mortgages and compensation contracts. The auto companies want to renegotiate. Congress wants to eliminate the force of the contracts altogether.

    Big difference.
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:51 AM
    tomder55

    Will do them a whole lot of good if they have their contracts but not their jobs. But OK let them stand on strong principle .
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:54 AM
    NeedKarma
    Good bye America. :(
  • Mar 19, 2009, 11:59 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    will do them a whole lot of good if they have their contracts but not their jobs. but ok let them stand on strong principle .

    Hello again,

    I'm sorry. You're going to have to explain to me what the difference is between the auto workers and the executives at AIG.

    If the government didn't bail them out, the AIG dudes wouldn't have contracts either. Why aren't THEY being asked to renegotiate them, like you're asking the auto workers to do, or is their principle better than the auto workers principle?

    excon
  • Mar 19, 2009, 01:44 PM
    speechlesstx
    The House - with the help of about half the GOP - passed their 90 percent tax on AIG bonuses. Now we're setting a precedent, whoever Congress finds in contempt they can just slap an extremely punitive tax on them.

    Quote:

    I deplore this confiscatory tax aimed at whoever Congress is mad at today. Right now it's AIG and Fannie Mae; later it will be Merrill and Citibank, and eventually it will be defense contractors, profiteering oil executives, or whomever the Congressional Dems single out as their whipping boy du jour.

    And of course, rolling this ex post tax out at the same time the Fed and Treasury are trying to encourage private investors to partner up with the government to get the credit markets moving again is insane. What investor needs the likely aggravation to follow? Who needs to be hauled in front of Barney Frank a year from now in order to be blasted as a profiteer who exploited our national crisis for his own profit, which Barney will then tax back? Who will be daft enough to come out of retirement as Liddy did to endure the abuse Liddy took?

    If only we had some leaders in Washington.

    MORE: The WSJ is fired up:

    This is all too much even for Rep. Charlie Rangel, the House's chief tax writer, who says the tax code shouldn't be deployed as a "political weapon." He's right. AIG's managers may be this week's political target of choice, but the message to every banker in America, indeed every business in America, is that you could be next. At least we haven't yet seen the resolution that was proposed in the English parliament, in 1720 in the aftermath of the South Sea bubble, that bankers be tied in sacks filled with snakes and tipped into the Thames. But it's still early days.

    I bet after seeing us, George Washington would sue us for calling him "father." -Will Rogers
  • Mar 19, 2009, 04:53 PM
    tomder55
    I am consistent . I think it was negligent for a bailout of AIG to occure without a renegotiation. But since it did not happen I am neither happy about the bonuses ;nor do I think the employees who were given them should be penalized. The gvt. Screwed up in this case.

    The preferred solution was chapter 11 where all contracts would've been subject to review. Asking them to give up the bonuses now is ex post facto or in the case of the way Congress applied it today... ex post punitive with extreme prejudice.

    Now I understand that ex post facto applies in criminal cases and not to civil laws... thanks to faulty logic by SCOTUS... But the principle is the same. What Congress did today sucks . They all passed the bucket list with the bonus exeception language in it. Had they read the legislation maybe it would not have slipped their notice. One thing is sure... it is now clear that Treasury pressured Congress to add the language.

    I say everyone who voted for the tax today ;and anyone in the administration should be compelled to disclose and return all contributions they have received from any institution subject to bail out funding .

    I'm waiting... (cricket sounds)

    As for the autoworkers union contracts ;their companies cannot survive if the contracts are not restructured . The legacy costs has made them uncompetitive for a long time .

    That is not the case with the AIG workers ;these bonuses were retention bonuses . The company thought that these employees were too important to leave. That is why they were offered the contracts.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 05:15 AM
    tomder55

    Quote:

    This is all too much even for Rep. Charlie Rangel, the House's chief tax writer, who says the tax code shouldn't be deployed as a "political weapon."
    He's full of cr*p also . It was his House Ways and Means Committee that crafted the confiscatory tax. He may have been singing that tune initially ;but he led the effort to get the tax on the floor of the house ;gloating that the other 10% will be gobbled up by local taxes.

    Bills of attainder and ex post facto laws are forbidden by Article I, section 9, clause 3 of the Constitution . But why would a tax cheat like Rangel bother reading the Constitution?
  • Mar 20, 2009, 05:33 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    But why would a tax cheat like Rangel bother reading the Constitution?

    Hello tom:

    I would guess for the same reason Eric Cantor, your right wing poster boy, didn't.

    Oh yeah... HE was right there passing this "confiscatory" tax. Bwa, ha ha ha.

    excon
  • Mar 20, 2009, 05:51 AM
    tomder55
    Boehner was right to oppose it. Cantor is too clever for his own good in his logic for voting for the tax. He said that was the price business risk when they take bailout money . That's all well and good ;but there are other ways to demonstrate that .


    (edit)a total of 85 Republicans joined in the majority vote. My guess is that they got caught up in the populist backlash and heard plenty from their constituents before the vote.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:13 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    I'm sorry. You're going to have to explain to me what the difference is between the auto workers and the executives at AIG.

    If the government didn't bail them out, the AIG dudes wouldn't have contracts either. Why aren't THEY being asked to renegotiate them, like you're asking the auto workers to do, or is their principle better than the auto workers principle?

    excon

    If AIG hadn't been bailed out, the execs WOULD be renegotiating their salaries and bonuses. This is, again, another unintended consequence of government interfering in the natural workings of business and commerce. What you are suggesting is exactly what would have happened in the Jackass-in Chief and the Dumbocrats & RINOs had listened to us conservatives.

    Thanks for proving my point yet again, Ex.

    However, now that the idiots in government have done their damage, there is no legal basis for undoing the contracts. They MUST stand as written, no matter how bad they are.

    Elliot
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:14 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Good bye America. :(

    Hey, you voted for the guy. Now you got to live with it.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:16 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Hey, you voted for the guy. Now you gotta live with it.

    I imagine now people will leave for Canada or Mexico.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:21 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    I imagine now people will leave for Canada or Mexico.

    That will depend on a number of factors, including how bad the taxes go up, the state of "universal" health care, the cost of basic goods and services vis-à-vis inflation, the price of energy, crime rates, the level of government abuses at every level, and a whole bunch more.

    Personally, I'm holding out for Israel... a Democracy without a Constitution that has more respect for the Constitution than Congress does these days.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:23 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    I imagine now people will leave for Canada or Mexico.

    Like that would be an improvement?
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:27 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Like that would be an improvement?

    Hello again, Steve:

    It would for me. As much as I love my country, I can't afford to live here anymore. Besides, I LOVE tacos.

    excon
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:50 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    It would for me. As much as I love my country, I can't afford to live here anymore. Besides, I LOVE tacos.

    I LOVE tacos, too... but the very best tacos are right here in Amarillo, Tx. And I'm not kidding... and I've eaten a LOT of tacos.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 09:52 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Personally, I'm holding out for Israel...

    Yup, that's a safe place to raise children. Good choice.
  • Mar 20, 2009, 10:23 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Yup, that's a safe place to raise children. Good choice.

    Statistically speaking, it is.

    The chances of getting hit by a bomb or rocket in Israel proper (not the West Bank or Gaza) is pretty slim. In five years of bombing, despite thousands of bombs and rockets, very few injuries and even fewer deaths have occurred. There's a greater statistical risk of being killed by a mugger in DC than on getting killed or even hurt by a terrorist bomb in Israel. Or for that matter, there's a greater risk of getting killed in a motor vehicle accident than there is in getting killed by a terrorist in Israel. And at least Israel's leaders have their eye on the ball regarding national security, which is more than can be said for Barack "Close Gitmo and Defund the Military" Obama.

    Elliot

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