I have a similar question to StaceyH on Feb. 15th, 2008. My driveway was poured on the 1st of Nov. 2008. There was a warm spell of weather for almost 1 week. However, it then turned very cold and wet for the rest of Nov. and Dec. I just moved in the house Feb. 21st. As I was cleaning up items from the garage, I walked out to the driveway and noticed 4 areas that are beginning to pit. No one has been on the driveway, at least in this area. Nor, has any salt been used on the concrete at all.
The weather at the time, broke into the mid 50's allowing the contractor to pour the driveway. I'm attaching pictures to the note. After reading the response to StacyH question, it sounds like an installer issue. He may have played with the top surface too much and added some water. Thus, causing the pitting as shown in the pictures.
The driveway is just over 4 months old. This shouldn't be happening.
My plan is to get the general contractor and concrete supplier and installer, and verify is happening. But, I have a feeling, I'm going to run into issues to get this resolved and replaced.
Any other suggestions will help,
Thanks

This could be a double whammy thing. He may have used an accelerator in the concrete so it sets up fast enough to finish off that day. It's a tough call on the % of accelerator too much sets too quick, to little to slow.

Where it "spawed" are there any slight puddles there or it stays damp the longest?

Either or the problem you have there will NOT go away and should never be.

You said a week of warmth. Was there any frost in the morning a day after the pour or two. That's all it takes to cause what you see. We cover our semi winter pours with poly and straw or use our "concrete warming blankets" and it stays covered for more than a week at times.

You are going to need the bad concrete replaced no matter what. If there's a problem now for WHATEVER reason at this point doesn't matter. The crete there is defective period because of whatever. .

Your contractor has to remedy the problem. Don't get talked into a re coat/ re surface. It looks like crap and it's a patch.

This is why I Go to extremes to cover crete. Normal curing time for fresh crete is 1 week at 70+ to get hopefully 70% cured on the high side. If anyone tells you different then there not telling the truth. It has to Cure before it freezes.

Your meeting may go the crete plant will blame the contractor. The contractor will blame the crete plant for a 'late delivery or bad crete. Today's concrete plants are usually very Hi tech. Especially if they haul for state pours etc. 9+ of 10 its site conditions and installers

Pictures can be tough to judge here, But from what I see in the finish its self there were some very good finishers there. The groves are sharp and clean and the top was troweled well to the grove. The brush surface is also good and flat. The timed that right. I just think they got had on a bad chance call to pour at that time of year.

Signed 21 Boat

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I inspected hot mix asphalt and concrete construction on state highways for 40 years. The first thing that jumps out at me is the red coloration around the blemished areas.
If I were the contractor, I would say that some liquid was thrown, spilled or leaked onto the concrete.
I agree with everything 21boat said about temperatures for placing and curing concrete. But unless I am not understanding the pictures very well, there is no reason for temperature/curing deficiencies to show up so inconsistently.
The only other possibility I can envision is wire mesh too close to the surface in some spots, and the red color is rust.

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Originally Posted by ;

deficiencies to show up so inconsistently

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Hi smear case. I thinking about weather the spots we look at are a tad low to dry out from the rest. If it is a tad low the stains can easily be attributed to tree leafs laying in that wetter area longer and staining the concrete. Dirt from the side area, If not then its another source.

Sorb55, Smearcase may have a point but if wire or rebar was to close to the surface then then the stains from steel rust would be more in a line as the wire and steel are straight in configuration. Usually steel mesh is hard to keep in the middle of the crete. Its tendencies is for it to be walked on and smashed to the bottom of the pour. You need a lot of "tables" to hold the wire mesh at the correct height. Rebar has the same problem. Many time we use rebar hooks to keep working bar into middle of crete.

If it was steel rust the popping it should not be that much given the time element here. It takes a season or two to cause that much popping of the finish surface. Dealt with that on in the crib. From salt in concrete and bar to close to surface.

The discoloration in the concrete is off from area to area. Unless its drying out. That can be how the finish dried out differently from spot to spot. It usually

Srob.. Now is the rest of the concrete top. Can you flake any of it up?

SORRY guys posted twice by accident

I do see tire marks in that area.

Signed 21 Boat

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Notice in pictures 1,4 and 5 especially, the light, whitish color in the areas of the worst deterioration. Did the finisher have a dirty bucket of water with remnants of something caustic when he threw water on the surface which we know is a bad practice anyhow?
If so, the substance could have been worked down by the finisher and it ate its way out over a few months. It would be interesting to know if the white areas were there previously.
I agree that high steel would be a straighter line. I think it is from a chemical either in the finishers bucket, leaked from something or pure and simple vandalism/ticked off worker get even sabotage.
How was it cured? Liquid, wet burlap?

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Originally Posted by ;

deficiencies to show up so inconsistently

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Sorry posted twice

If you drew a line around those areas it is in the shape of puddles. If looking closely at pic 1 and where the broom marks are. You can see on the edge where a liquid substance was penetrating the tiny valley if the broom marks. As a puddle would that sat there and froze/thawed. The general discoloration can be caused by dryer spots when the broom went over.

Dear 21boat, thanks for the reply. The problem I have, is that I was out of the country when the pour was done. I was totally shocked when I heard they poured the driveway. The conditions were not the best. And, with only a minimal of warth to help cure the driveway. I contacted the home builder today, and the general contractor who worked the job is on vacation till the end of the week.

To answer a couple of your questions, I'd have to say "yes" there are slight puddles or stays damp the longer than other areas. Until I talk with the general contractor, I won't know if they actually sealed the drive, and what they used, if it is sealed.

It sounds like I have a serious problem with the pour, and the contractor made the mistake of taking a chance, and pouring when the conditions weren't the best.

As for the finish, "yes" the rest of the driveway looks great.

I think the rustic color is strictly coming from the dirt beside the driveway. There was some dirt kicked onto the driveway, and I was clearing off with broom. This is how I noticed the pitting. Pretty ugly for a 4 month old pour.

I will look closer to the driveway, and make sure the discoloration isn't from some WWM from within the concrete.

If at most, I don't think the driveway had time to cure and it became to cold and the freeze hit it to soon. I'm hoping to get the actual date of the pour, and verify temperatures during that time frame.

Thanks
Srob5525

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Originally Posted by 21boat

This could be a a double whammy thing. He may have used an accelerator in the concrete so it sets up fast enough to finish off that day. Its a tough call on the % of accelerator to much sets too quick, to little to slow.

Where it "spawed" are there any slight puddles there or it stays damp the longest?

Either or the problem you have there will NOT go away and should never be.

You said a week of warmth. Was there any frost in the morning a day after the pour or two. Thats all it takes to cause what you see. We cover our semi winter pours with poly and straw or use our "concrete warming blankets" and it stays covered for more than a week at times.

You are going to need the bad concrete replaced no matter what. If theres a problem now for WHATEVER reason at this point doesn't matter. The crete there is defective period because of whatever. .

Your contractor has to remedy the problem. Don't get talked into a re coat/ re surface. It looks like crap and its a patch.

This is why I Go to extremes to cover crete. Normal curing time for fresh crete is 1 week at 70+ to get hopefully 70% cured on the high side. If anyone tells you different then there not telling the truth. It has to Cure before it freezes.

Your meeting may go the crete plant will blame the contractor. The contractor will blame the crete plant for a 'late delivery or bad crete. Todays concrete plants are usually very Hi tech. Especially if they haul for state pours etc. 9+ of 10 its site conditions and installers

Pictures can be tough to judge here, But from what I see in the finish its self there were some very good finishers there. The groves are sharp and clean and the top was troweled well to the grove. The brush surface is also good and flat. The timed that right. I just think they got had on a bad chance call to pour at that time of year.

Signed 21 Boat

If I Helped To Answer Your Question Please Rate My Answer

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To help test the what we call top, is tap areas and listen to the sound and differences in sound. This indicates that there is partial adhesion from the "cream" top to the base below the top that isn't troweled. Where ever the puddles are is the higher possibility of separation due to that area having more mostiure to freez ans pop the top.

If the crete sets up fast and starts to get away a spritz of water is added to work the top. That's done Many times in pours. I use a pump sprayer to control the AMOUNT of water, mist it is the trick. It can't be too much or the top looses is PSI. and the cure timing is off to the crete below it.

That creates a mini "cold joint" A cold joint is when there is a pour with a couple of trucks and the first pour isn't down quick enough and the second truck is as wet as the first truck in the beginning but now the end of the first truck poor has set up too much to bond to first pour. If the second truck is late and or is sitting in the truck to long then a reverse cold joint can happen. Concrete is a tricky science, Which I'm sure smearcase as an inspector will tell you. Slump cone failures etc. Proper Temp for asphalt.

Get back when you find out what every one there says the problem is.

Signed 21 Boat

If I Helped To Answer Your Question Please Rate My Answer

Was it a new house?
If so,it shouldn't poured for a year or two to let the gravel settle.
I believe it was too cold just to leave unheated and uncovered.
Gerry

Handyman4u. If all new construction waited for a year or two to pour a driveway us concrete-rs and the southern housing industry would collapse. That's way we have vibrating rollers and gas powered tampers.

So how do you move into a new house and where are you going to park...

Just thought I give you a heads up.

The house was started Oct. 1st and we closed Feb. 21st.
The driveway was poured Nov. 1st. And from what the neighbors told me, they
Did cover the driveway for a short time there after.
As of right now, the builder is telling me this is strickly salt damage. We moved into the house Feb. 22nd and three weeks after, is when I noticed the pits in the driveway. No cars or trucks ever sat in the location of the damaged area. So, I don't believe salt could react this quickly?
Thanks

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Originally Posted by Handyman4U

Was it a new house?
If so,it shouldn't poured for a year or two to let the gravel settle.
I believe it was too cold just to leave unheated and uncovered.
Gerry

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Last Friday, the Drees Homes general contractor stopped by the house to look over the driveway. The first words out of his mouth were, this is damage by salt only. But, that he would have the concrete company stop over and look as well. I have not seen anyone, nor have a heard from anyone yet.
I have my 60 day warranty coming up next week. Someone from Drees will be back over to the house. This will be a major topic with this person.
Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 21boat

Handyman4u. If all new construction waited for a year or two to pour a driveway us concrete-rs and the southern housing industry would collapse. Thats way we have vibrating rollers and gas powered tampers.

So how do you move into a new house and where are you going to park........

Just thought I give you a heads up.

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Originally Posted by ;

So, I don't believe salt could react this quickly?

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If any salt was put on new concrete then that's most likely the problem here. I assumed there was none especially on 'green" concrete when it most vulnerable.

I always tell the customer this and then tell then not to use rock salt. The concrete we pour has a melting additive for flat work such as walks and driveways. We even get charged an environmental diff on the crete. Along with the additive.

Its just the opposite salt on a newer driveway can deteriorate the concrete quicker than old.

Here how that happens.

Why Does Salt Do Damage to Concrete?

Sorry for the bad news. The only argument left would be the contractor didn't tell you no salt for the first and then no rock salt.

21 boat,
You didn't assume anything. The original statement of the problem says "Nor, has any salt been used on the concrete at all".

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Originally Posted by ;

So, I don't believe salt could react this quickly?

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When read this on post 11 I was assuming that there was salt put on driveway. Which I thought earlier it was stated that yo didn't. The above confused me unless you were referring to that even id there was salt on drive ( which there wasn't according to the first post) that the crete wouldn't react so quickly ( which it would)

That's will be a hard one to prove unless you ah it tested for residual salt level in the crete or found out what other creters think.

I feel bad for you in a big way and all here. So again to help prove a case a fault here would be difficult to say the least unless you got a lab to test the crete for its properties and what other outside properties may have been added.

There was no salt ever thrown on the driveway. Not to mention, there was very limited snow fall, were road salt would be on the cars, and then dropped or melted onto the driveway. My cars are not even parked near this area. During the winter (Nov. Dec. Jan.) the only vehicles on the drive would have been workers from Drees doing interior work. However, there was a short time when Drees had workers putting up stone on front face of house. Their truck was on driveway.
If no vehicles should have been on the driveway, during the winter, Drees should have put up a permenent block for access to driveway. \

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 21boat

If any salt was put on new concrete then thats most likely the problem here. I assumed there was none especially on 'green" concrete when it most vulnerable.

I always tell the customer this and then tell then not to use rock salt. The concrete we pour has a melting additive for flat work such as walks and driveways. We even get charged an environmental diff on the crete. along with the additive.

Its just the opposite salt on a newer driveway can deteriorate the concrete quicker than old.

Here how that happens.

Why Does Salt Do Damage to Concrete?

Sorry for the bad news. The only argument left would be the contractor didn't tell you no salt for the first and then no rock salt.

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Did you know that salt doesn't hurt concrete? That's right, it's a myth! In fact, the concrete industry adds calcium chloride, a salt variant in concrete to accelerate the set in cold weather. Concrete that is intended to be exposed to freeze/thaw conditions, must first be designed with a compressive strength of at least 4000psi (27MPa), have a water/cement ratio of no more than 0.4, have 6-8% air entrainment and it must be placed, finished and cured properly. If these things are all done properly and the concrete is sealed with a quality, breathable sealer, your concrete will remain durable for years and years to come even when exposed to de-icing salts.

The damage to your concrete was more than likely caused by one or more of the following conditions:

1. The most likely cause of your problem is moisture in the concrete and in the aggregate in particular, freezing and expanding. Your concrete needs close to 60 days of cure time to get the moisture levels in the concrete and the aggregate low before being exposed to prolonged freezing conditions. This means in northern climates, while somewhat impractical, concrete should not be placed outside after October 15th.
2. Adding too much water to the mix, increasing the water/cement ratio above 0.40 could be a cause.
3. It could have been caused by your contractor over-working the surface of the concrete bringing too much cement paste to the top of the concrete. The top cement paste layer is the weakest part of your concrete and if further weakened, by over working, using the wrong tools, procedures or adding water, you will get surface spalling.
4. It could have been caused by your contractor adding water to the surface of the concrete.
5. It could have been caused by the concrete not having the proper air entrainment for your area.
6. It may have been caused by your contractor finishing the top of the concrete too early and/or using steel finishing tools which close the surface off too much too soon and traps water under the surface of the concrete.
7. It could have been caused by the concrete not having adequate design strength.

In order to eliminate all the speculation, contact a local concrete testing laboratory and have them come out and make some observations and hypothesis. They should then follow this up by laboratory testing which will included taking a minimum of three (3) core sample of your driveway and they will test the air-void content, compressive strength, etc. and will give opinion based on their observations and the test results as to the cause of the problem, which will more than likely point back to your contractor and/or concrete supplier.

By the way, when you get surface damage to concrete due to de-icing chemicals, it's because the concrete isn't very good to begin with.

We use de-icing chemicals (including salt) to melt ice and snow, which turns into water which penetrates into the concrete and eventually re-freezes and when it does, it expands which caused delamination and surface spalling, especially at he surface, concrete's weakest place. This also dramatically increases the number of freeze/thaw cycles your concrete experiences.

So when you have poor concrete as described in my first post and your cocnrete experiences freeze/thaw conditions, you will have problems.