I need to install an new central air conditioning complete system to replace what I now have. The existing ducts will remain. I understand that R 22 is being phased out and that by 2020 will no longer be permitted to be manufactured or be imported into the U.S.A. I also understand that Puron is safer for the environment, more energy efficient, but heats up higher, requires more pressure to function, and currently is more costly to install and to replace if needed. I am thinking of getting a Carrier which provides a choice of either refrigerant. My question is - which system should I purchase now - one which uses R 22 or one which uses Puron?
In addition, since Puron is fairly new, I would like to hear from anyone who has been using it and what their posivitive and/or negative experience has been.

Puron is a name that Carrier uses for there refigerant it is actually R410A and is used in many units now. The only problem I have with this freon is the extremely high preasure it runs under High side almost up into the 500 PSI range. If you do use Puron you will have to change you copper lines as well as the coil about the furnace. R22 is going to be on the chopping block like you said, but that will not keep companies from recovering R22 and cleaning it and selling it over and over. With it still being 13 to 14 years till then ban and then another 20 years or so before it is in low quanity, I would and do sell Carrier with R22. You have to buy at least a 13 S.E.E.R. unit which ever freon You use.

We just had central air installed in our house. When talking with the salesman, he asked us "are you going to live here a long time, or are you just planning on fixing the house up and selling?" When we said we planned on living here for a while, he recommended R410A over R22.

Yes, it may be 14 years before the ban is enacted, but I believe it's much sooner than that that new R22 units can no longer be sold in the US and Canada. Also, A/C units can last for tens of years. I'll bet you'll be kicking yourself if you save some money now by putting in R22, and in 20 years have to shell out to completely replace your system.

At any rate, we've only run the unit for about a week when it was really hot, and I don't have any other experience with central A/C, so I don't think I can make a performance-related recommendation, other than to let you know that it worked just fine. Of course, when it's 37C outside, and 25C inside, I'm happy :)

Hope that helps you some.

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Originally Posted by rzee4

I need to install an new central air conditioning complete system to replace what I now have. The existing ducts will remain. I understand that R 22 is being phased out and that by 2020 will no longer be permitted to be manufactured or be imported into the U.S.A. I also understand that Puron is safer for the environment, more energy efficient, but heats up higher, requires more pressure to function, and currently is more costly to install and to replace if needed. I am thinking of getting a Carrier which provides a choice of either refrigerant. My question is - which system should I purchase now - one which uses R 22 or one which uses Puron?
In addition, since Puron is fairly new, I would like to hear from anyone who has been using it and what their posivitive and/or negative experience has been.

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Letmetellu: Can you please explain what you mean what you say the freon runs under extremely high pressure? Thanks!

((Yes, it may be 14 years before the ban is enacted, but I believe it's much sooner than that that new R22 units can no longer be sold in the US and Canada. Also, A/C units can last for tens of years. I'll bet you'll be kicking yourself if you save some money now by putting in R22, and in 20 years have to shell out to completely replace your system.))

First of all the way the equiptment is made today I do not believe it will last for 20 years. The latest industry figures say 10 to 12 years.
In 10 to 12 years A/C will be vastly improved possibly with a better refrigerant and different design coils etc. So if you put in 410/puron now it is not a guarantee of it being the same system in 10/12 years.

In our research at the lab at NKU many years ago it was found that 410 had a few problems that 22 did not have. The oil used in 410 is hydroscopic. That means it sucks up water like a magnet and this is a major problem with refrigeration/AC systems. R-22 uses mineral oil and is not near the magnet for water as oil for 410. When you install this stuff you better wear surgical gloves and be quick about your brazing. During brazing a nitrogen flow is necessary to prevent contamination and that holds true for all refrigerants but 410 is more sensitive to this.

Higher pressure does cause more stress but usually the manufacturer has made accommodations for this item.

It might be difficult to find a company that has a talented staff to deal with 410 and some of its properties. R-22 has been around for over 40 years and everyone is familiar with it.

410 is no more efficient than 22 in side by side same SEER equiptment.
We will probably all be dead by the time we run out of R-22 so it really does not make a difference what type of refrigerant we use. By some estimates R-22 will be around for 30-40 years so why worry about it now.. The EPA has located on there web site information about phase outs etc but what they do not tell you is that the volume of R-22 already made by then will more than carry over for those years.

I have nothing personal against R-22 or R-410 it is just a matter of logical choice and money spent. My home has 3 central systems and they are all R-22. The units are very old 1978 to 1983 when they were installed properly and they continue to run just as well as the day they were installed. When and if they ever ned to be replaced it will be a R-22 unit that will replace them and not a 410.

One last tip. What name brand or type of unit you finally pick really makes no difference because they will all work properly if installed to very high standards. The biggest problem you will have is finding a company that really knows what they are doing no matter what you install. The instillation is everything when it comes to HVAC work. This is a fact that has been proven time after time. When the company does lousy braze jobs, does not use nitrogen gas while brazing, does not vac the system correctly and purge at least one time and then use a digital vac gauge for the final micron reading you are already heading for trouble down the road.

I wish you well with the selection of your new equiptment and one final tip. No matter what you buy make sure the inside coil and copper lineset are replaced if it is a replacement job and if new all of that will be included.

Go with the 410A. Yes it does run with higher pressures. But the same evap. Coil and copper lines, the way you weld it is the same as always. The only diff is the way they meter the refrigerant. It is the new refrigerant. All systems are going to it. Puron is the name of the refrigerant that Carrier uses.( They have been using it a little longer than most and that's why people call it Puron.)








T

I see a repeat of the Ninety's when R-12, R-502, R500 & R-13 were going to be discontinued. High prices and hard to find. Then came the new drop in replacements and then no one had to replace there equipment after all just because they couldn't find any old refrigerants. I'm already reading about new replacements for R-22. I have nothing bad to say about 410A but, I'm in no hurry to install one in my home.

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Originally Posted by hvac1000

((Yes, it may be 14 years before the ban is enacted, but I believe it's much sooner than that that new R22 units can no longer be sold in the US and Canada. Also, A/C units can last for tens of years. I'll bet you'll be kicking yourself if you save some money now by putting in R22, and in 20 years have to shell out to completely replace your system.))

First of all the way the equiptment is made today I do not believe it will last for 20 years. The latest industry figures say 10 to 12 years.
In 10 to 12 years A/C will be vastly improved possibly with a better refrigerant and different design coils etc. So if you put in 410/puron now it is not a guarantee of it being the same system in 10/12 years.

In our research at the lab at NKU many years ago it was found that 410 had a few problems that 22 did not have. The oil used in 410 is hydroscopic. That means it sucks up water like a magnet and this is a major problem with refrigeration/AC systems. R-22 uses mineral oil and is not near the magnet for water as oil for 410. When you install this stuff you better wear surgical gloves and be quick about your brazing. During brazing a nitrogen flow is necessary to prevent contamination and that holds true for all refrigerants but 410 is more sensitive to this.

Higher pressure does cause more stress but usually the manufacturer has made accommodations for this item.

It might be difficult to find a company that has a talented staff to deal with 410 and some of its properties. R-22 has been around for over 40 years and everyone is familiar with it.

410 is no more efficient than 22 in side by side same SEER equiptment.
We will probably all be dead by the time we run out of R-22 so it really does not make a difference what type of refrigerant we use. By some estimates R-22 will be around for 30-40 years so why worry about it now.. The EPA has located on there web site information about phase outs etc but what they do not tell you is that the volume of R-22 already made by then will more than carry over for those years.

I have nothing personal against R-22 or R-410 it is just a matter of logical choice and money spent. My home has 3 central systems and they are all R-22. The units are very old 1978 to 1983 when they were installed properly and they continue to run just as well as the day they were installed. When and if they ever ned to be replaced it will be a R-22 unit that will replace them and not a 410.

One last tip. What name brand or type of unit you finally pick really makes no difference because they will all work properly if installed to very high standards. The biggest problem you will have is finding a company that really knows what they are doing no matter what you install. The instillation is everything when it comes to HVAC work. This is a fact that has been proven time after time. When the company does lousy braze jobs, does not use nitrogen gas while brazing, does not vac the system correctly and purge at least one time and then use a digital vac gauge for the final micron reading you are already heading for trouble down the road.

I wish you well with the selection of your new equiptment and one final tip. No matter what you buy make sure the inside coil and copper lineset are replaced if it is a replacement job and if new all of that will be included.

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I need to spread some reputation around before I can give you another kudos HVAC. :p

You did leave out one more ugly fact about 410A. If you get a leak, even though the oil is dry and the unit never pulled a negative atmospheric pressure. You have to remove all the refrigerant and recharge with new. The reason being, 410A is a blend and one component will leak faster than the others, that is why you must charge as a liquid and not a gas, as with R-22.

(( I need to spread some reputation around before I can give you another kudos HVAC.

You did leave out one more ugly fact about 410A. If you get a leak, even though the oil is dry and the unit never pulled a negative atmospheric pressure. You have to remove all the refrigerant and recharge with new. The reason being, 410A is a blend and one component will leak faster than the others, that is why you must charge as a liquid and not a gas, as with R-22.))

I totally agree. How stupid of me to forget that. I have heard rumors that the separation in a leak situation can be a problem. Since we only test units at the university we charge fresh for each different test and recover when finished. Honeywell drop shipped for free about 300 pounds of 410 about 5 year ago. At last calculation we have only lost 8 pounds in the last year. Considering all the different manufactures equiptment we test that is a miracle.

I am very concerned about the much higher pressures of R 410 A ( hard on compressor, more leaks, harder installation). Also if hydroscopic oil is still used my all manufacturers of R 410 A (moisture in the system may cause compressor problems and potential mold on the coils,etc..?

RJB
West Chester, PA

Very complete and valuable

I live outside phoenix az and when my old R22 ac quit in July I installed a new system with R410 Puron, Huge mistake!!
Puron does not cool house in Phoenix triple digits. Coil and air handler/furnace is in attic with temps over 150-160 degrees
Renders Puron totally ineffective. Thermostat set on 78 and ac runs 5 and 6 hours non-stop and temp in house rises steadily
To 81-82 degrees. Also high pressure draws hot outside air through bathroom ceiling vents. Am going back to R22 system pronto.

R-410A works just as well as R-22. You just have a bad install.