Hi there!
Thank you again for helping me with the venting question I had a few weeks ago. On the third inspection, we passed, after the plumber basically did everything that was said on your answers.

Now, I have another question, or really, a few. And they are regarding the tiled in shower.

1) After doing quite a bit of reading, I know now that a shower liner needs to be installed on top of a sloped mud bed (thin) . Ours was installed without a slope underneath, the only slope is above the liner.

2) Also, the carpenter had put nails about , maybe 2" above that mud bed, and not as high as the curb

3) when the carpenter installed the hardi backer, he did not install a vapor barrier behind it. There is insulation behind in the outside walls (2 out of 3), and those have vapor barrier on them.

4) the old framing is far from straight, and therefor the hardi backer is looking far from straight. The carpenter is saying he will straighten that up when he tiles.

At this point, I am quite worried, and I considering ripping out all that work, including the showerliner, the hardibacker, and re doing or hiring someone to redo it. I just wish I had enough time in my hands to do it all myself, because my budget is too low I seem to be hiring the wrong people.

What should I do?

Thank you so much for your help

lamalolo

Lamalolo..

Hi again... :)

#1... Shower liners require sloped floor UNDER the liner. This is very important because if/when water gets down to the liner it needs to drain by gravity to the drain and fall into the drain through the WEEP holes in the drain. If water cannot drain out all around the pan then mold can set in, cement base can weaken and floor/tile can crack. This is why they put WEEP holes in the shower strainer assembly.

#2... Nails should not be installed below the curb. If they are then it is just creating an Unnecessary weak point in the pan. Although not necessarily critical here... I just don't understand when people do it because it is as stated... unnecessary!

#3... Vapor barriers for showers are debateable. If this was a steam shower then it would absolutely be required. In terms of showers, some install them and some don't... so up to each installer here.

#4... Why hire people to do this work if they are not going to take the time to square and plumb walls up? The carpenter can definitely make things work if issues are not too great, but if walls are badly in need of fixing then the carpenter should discuss that with you, charge extra for his work and fix the issues. That is between you and him.

If your budget is as tight as you suggest then I am guessing that you are pushing these guys pretty hard to keep the dollars down. If that is the case..well...can't get gold/silver for the price of copper/brass...know what I mean?? If you want a great job...usually costs... ;)

Anyway, go easy on these guys as I figure somewhere you knew something was up when you got the price!

Let me know what you think...

MARK

Thank you for the reply Mark

Well, obviously I've been making quite a bit of mistakes in this process.

I am paying the carpenter by the hour, and not by the job, which I would assume would lead him to not cutting corners too much. But, it does not seem to do that...

The carpenter says that he will fur out some walls, but around the shower he says its not necessary. Really, it just looks pretty bad right now, but... I just don't know.

About the shower liner, the question is - leave it as is, reap it out, or - is there another solution. I have been looking around and found out about a product called kerdi, and, I was wondering if I can/should use that. Above the slope which is above the liner...

And I will check with the plumber about the weep holes.

I know I am looking for something that's hard to achieve. I am a little bit in over my head, as we decided to go without a gc in this major renovation to save money. But I still want quality work, that will look good and will not need to be teared up in a few years...

...

Thanks for your reply again!

lamalolo

The problem with the term "vapor barrier" is that it gets used interchangeably with "moisture barrier. In all tub surrounds and shower pans where a cement board is used and it is not covered prior to tile with a liquid waterproofing membrane such as "Redgard" or "Hydroban", or a sheet membrane such as Nobleseal TS or Schluter Kerdi, a moisture barrier is needed to protect the stud cavities and framing from moisture penetration. Roofing felt, for example. provides the needed moisture protection behind the cbu. It is vapor emmissive and as such, is not called a vapor barrier. Nobleseal or Kerdi have perm ratings less than 1 and are vapor proof. As such, the use of those two topical membranes would qualify it as the vapor barrier for that area. Just to add to the confusion, the general rule of thumb is one or the other, but not both. It's best to use unfaced insulation behind the walls and use poly sheeting over the walls, then you can use foil tape to attach a srtip of the vapor barrier plastic so that it overlaps the tub flange (overlap is required) or in the case of a site built shower pan, to overlap the liner of the pan with the plastic sheeting.

Or, if Kerdi or Nobleseal is used, then just unfaced insulation behind the cbu without any other sort of barrier between the studs and the cbu.

As stated before, the liner must be pitched 1/4" per foot from the furthest point from the drain. Once the liner is installed over the pitched bed and curb and around the jams to a height no less than 3" above the finished curb height, then there are two methods for curb construction. First would be lath pinching the curb and then cbu walls installed. There can be (per code) no fasteners penetrating the liner at any point lower than 2" above the finished curb height. The lath over the curb gets fastened only on the outside. The setting bed of mortar is uniformly 1.25" thick and will pin the bottom of the cbu to the studs and the inside of the lath to the curb... there can be no fasteners in either of those two places. Noble makes a preformed tile ready curb that will slip over the stacked 2x4's or bricks used to fashion the curb. It gets nailed in place on the outside and the setting bed of mud will pinch the inside to the curb. That would be the second option in place of lath.

Per code, the liner and the walls cannot occupy the same place. In other words, the studs must be furred out or (my preference) planned to allow the liner to go behind the cbu without causing a bump where the cbu will overlap the liner.


That's about it. If you choose to go with Kerdi, you would only need either their preformed pan or you can custom build a single layer mud pan, and then use kerdi to cover it all up. You can either make your curb out of stacked 2x4's, wrap in either cbu or sheetrock and then theat also gets covered in kerdi or you can use a preformed Kerdi curb.

Kerdi really can't be used without their proprietary drain, although they do make a special flange, it's just not worth not using their drain. You'd pretty much be starting over from scratch at this point if you switched to Kerdi.


Reality is that your whole shower needs to be started over anyway, so you make the call. There is no better tile shower system than Kerdi and it's very easy to install.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bljack

The problem with the term "vapor barrier" is that it gets used interchangably with "moisture barrier. In all tub surrounds and shower pans where a cement board is used and it is not covered prior to tile with a liquid waterproofing membrane such as "Redgard" or "Hydroban", or a sheet membrane such as Nobleseal TS or Schluter Kerdi, a moisture barrier is needed to protect the stud cavities and framing from moisture penetration. Roofing felt, for example. provides the needed moisture protection behind the cbu. It is vapor emmissive and as such, is not called a vapor barrier. Nobleseal or Kerdi have perm ratings less than 1 and are vapor proof. As such, the use of those two topical membranes would qualify it as the vapor barrier for that area. Just to add to the confusion, the general rule of thumb is one or the other, but not both. It's best to use unfaced insulation behind the walls and use poly sheeting over the walls, then you can use foil tape to attach a srtip of the vapor barrier plastic so that it overlaps the tub flange (overlap is required) or in the case of a site built shower pan, to overlap the liner of the pan with the plastic sheeting.

Or, if Kerdi or Nobleseal is used, then just unfaced insulation behind the cbu without any other sort of barrier between the studs and the cbu.

As stated before, the liner must be pitched 1/4" per foot from the furthest point from the drain. Once the liner is installed over the pitched bed and curb and around the jams to a height no less than 3" above the finished curb height, then there are two methods for curb construction. First would be lath pinching the curb and then cbu walls installed. There can be (per code) no fasteners penetrating the liner at any point lower than 2" above the finished curb height. The lath over the curb gets fastened only on the outside. The setting bed of mortar is uniformly 1.25" thick and will pin the bottom of the cbu to the studs and the inside of the lath to the curb...there can be no fasteners in either of those two places. Noble makes a preformed tile ready curb that will slip over the stacked 2x4's or bricks used to fashion the curb. It gets nailed in place on the outside and the setting bed of mud will pinch the inside to the curb. That would be the second option in place of lath.

Per code, the liner and the walls cannot occupy the same place. In other words, the studs must be furred out or (my preference) planed to allow the liner to go behind the cbu without causing a bump where the cbu will overlap the liner.


That's about it. If you choose to go with Kerdi, you would only need either their preformed pan or you can custom build a single layer mud pan, and then use kerdi to cover it all up. You can either make your curb out of stacked 2x4's, wrap in either cbu or sheetrock and then theat also gets covered in kerdi or you can use a preformed Kerdi curb.

Kerdi really can't be used without their proprietary drain, although they do make a special flange, it's just not worth not using their drain. You'd pretty much be starting over from scratch at this point if you switched to Kerdi.


Reality is that your whole shower needs to be started over anyway, so you make the call. There is no better tile shower system than Kerdi and it's very easy to install.

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Thanks for your answer Bljack

So - is it totally necessary to redo everything?
Won't I be pretty safe if I just cover it all with kerdi? Is that because I am not using their drain?

I will have the liner underneath the concrete, but water shouldn't even get there because of the kerdi on top, and the holes the carpenter did that are two low would be also covered.

Do you think that will work or is there no other way but to rip it all out?

Thank you

lamalolo

You could chip out the concrete around the drain, use an inside pipe cutter to remove the drain and switch it out to a kerdi drain, but the problem now becomes kerdi on the walls would create a double vapor barrier. Any way you go, there are issues remaining. If you are thinking of spending the money on a product like Kerdi, just start over and be sure of a watertight system.

Just wondering, is there or did you plan a bench in this shower? Are there going to be any recessed niches of soap/shampoo? Either of those are easy to do but also have their specific requirements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bljack

You could chip out the concrete around the drain, use an inside pipe cutter to remove the drain and switch it out to a kerdi drain, but the problem now becomes kerdi on the walls would create a double vapor barrier. Any way you go, there are issues remaining. If you are thinking of spending the money on a product like Kerdi, just start over and be sure of a watertight system.

Just wondering, is there or did you plan a bench in this shower? Are there going to be any recessed niches of soap/shampoo? Either of those are easy to do but also have their specific requirements.

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Thanks again Bljack

I see...

We were not planning on a bench or a niche.

We want to do the right thing, because it would be even more expensive to fix it later.
And, we will redo it all if we have to, which seems to be the case.

But, I would hate to fight with both the plumber and the carpenter now, and I would have to basically tell them they did not do it right, and I will need to see if they would redo it, which they probably would not, and then I would have to hire someone else, again.

And I extremely don't feel like doing that...

Can I use a different product without redoing? Maybe like this one: bathroom remodeling shower pan liner and then not put kerdi on the walls...

I will redo the entire thing if I have no other choice!. I just really wish I don't have to.

Thank you so much!

lamalolo

That stuff is just a topical waterproofing product. Problem with the set up as shown is that if you look at the "how to" pictures on the site, there is no tie in to the drain collar. Water will go between the water proofer and the drain collar. That stuff is HACKNESS at it's best.

Your plumber should be familiar UPC 412.8:

Quote:

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When the construction of on-site built-up shower receptors is
Permitted by the Administrative Authority, one of the following means shall
Be employed:
(1) Shower receptors built directly on the ground:
Shower receptors built directly on the ground shall be watertight and shall
Be constructed from approved type dense, non-absorbent and non-corrosive
Materials. Each such receptor shall be adequately reinforced, shall be
Provided with an approved flanged floor drain designed to make a watertight
Joint in the floor, and shall have smooth, impervious, and durable surfaces.
(2) Shower receptors built above ground:
When shower receptors are built above ground the sub-floor and rough side of
Walls to a height of not less than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of
The finished dam or threshold shall be first lined with sheet plastic*,
Lead* or copper* or shall be lined with other durable and watertight
Materials.
All lining materials shall be pitched one-quarter (1/4) inch per foot
(20. 9 mm/m) to weep holes in the subdrain of a smooth and solidly formed
Sub-base. All such lining materials shall extend upward on the rough jambs
Of the shower opening to a point no less
Than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of the finished dam or threshold
And shall extend outward over the top of the rough threshold and be turned
Over and fastened on the outside face of both the rough threshold and the
Jambs.
Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may be built-up on the job site
Of not less than three (3) layers of standard grade fifteen (15) pound (6.8
Kg) asphalt impregnated roofing felt. The bottom layer shall be fitted to
The formed sub-base and each succeeding layer thoroughly hot mopped to that
Below. All corners shall be carefully fitted and shall be made strong and
Watertight by folding or lapping, and each corner shall be reinforced with
Suitable webbing hot-mopped in place. All folds, laps, and reinforcing
Webbing shall extend at least four (4) inches (102 mm) in all directions
From the corner and all webbing shall be of approved type and mesh,
Producing a tensile strength of not less than fifty (50) psi (344. 5 kPa) in
Either direction. Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may also consist
Of multi-layers of other approved equivalent materials suitably reinforced
And carefully fitted in place on the job site as elsewhere required in this
Section.
Linings shall be properly recessed and fastened to approved backing so
As not to occupy the space required for the wall covering and shall not be
Nailed or perforated at any point which may be less than one (1) inch (25.4
Mm) above the finished dam or threshold. An approved type sub-drain shall be
Installed with every shower sub-pan or lining. Each such sub-drain shall be
Of the type that sets flush with the sub-base and shall be equipped with a
Clamping ring or other device to make a tight connection between the lining
And the drain. The sub-drain shall have weep holes into the waste line. The
Weep holes located in the subdrain clamping ring shall be protected from
Clogging.

*Lead and copper sub-pans or linings shall be insulated from all conducting
Substances other than their connecting drain by fifteen (15) pound (6. 8 kg)
Asphalt felt or its equivalent and no lead pan or liner shall be constructed
Of material weighing less than four (4) pounds per square foot (19. 5 kg/m2).
Copper pans or liners shall be at least No. 24 B & S Gauge (0. 02 inches)
(0. 5 mm). Joints in lead pans or liners shall be burned. Joints in copper
Pans or liners shall be soldered or brazed. Plastic pans shall not be coated
With asphalt based materials."

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Noble Company, Oatey, and others all have details of the required installations. Don't feel bad about expecting someone you hire to do it exactly right. Would you accept any less from your auto mechanic, accountant, surgeon? How'd you like to let them take short cuts?;)

Vapor barrier is important: When hot water hits cold tile it creates condensation. That condensation will damage your framing.

As far as walls go - they should be furred out first. Tile will not fix it. Tile will just copy the crooked walls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal

Vapor barrier is important: When hot water hits cold tile it creates condensation. That condensation will damage your framing.

As far as walls go - they should be furred out first. Tile will not fix it. Tile will just copy the crooked walls.

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Thank you again my new virtual friends !

I asked both the plumber and the carpenter to start from scratch.

The carpenter first said, no problem, he will redo it with no charge. Then he came back saying that vapor barrier is not necessary as per building codes so its really my fault, I should have told him before that I wanted it. Is it really not required by code? Anyway I told him the vapor barrier is not the only problem, its also the walls being totally not straight. I think he will end up doing whatever I ask him, because there is so much more work in the house for him... If he does not do it he will surely be fired.

The plumber said he has been doing the liner without a pre slope for years and never got a complaint. I will still insist in him doing it with no labor charge. It will still cost me for more materials. I hope he will be convinced.

Without your help I would still be totally lost, so thank you.

I will keep you posted...

lamalolo

Just a quick update - the plumber did agree to redo, and he will also supply the materials.

:)

lamalolo

Sounding real good here Lamalolo...

Plumber must have done some research and found out just how important pre-sloping pan is. Good for him that he stepped up and went the distance here!! Good for you for catching it! :)

Like I started telling you each... vapor barriers are debatable... each state has its own requirements. However, I certainly agree with everyone when they say that a vapor barrier is never a bad idea when done properly. Last I knew only steam showers REQUIRED a vapor barrier... all states that I know of. I'll check some national standard codes tomorrow... let you know what I find. Meanwhile maybe Milo or Bljack may know requirements in their area..?

Glad we could help here...

MARK

Quote:

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The carpenter first said, no problem, he will redo it with no charge. Then he came back saying that vapor barrier is not necessary as per building codes so its really my fault, I should have told him before that I wanted it.

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That's why I wrote a mini novel describing the difference between a vapor barrier and a moisture barrier. No, regular showers require a moisture barrier behind the cbu or a topical water proofer. Is it your fault? He said he could do the shower which implies he is familiar with both the ansi and tcna guidelines for shower construction. It's his fault for saying he could do it when he hasn't a clue. Also, walls or floors cannot be out of plane more than 1/4" in 10ft and no more than 1/16" variation in any 1'

Boy, isn't knowledge empowering? ;)

Quote:

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The plumber said he has been doing the liner without a pre slope for years and never got a complaint.

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:rolleyes:

As long as the pan holds water, even if it doesn't all drain, most inspectors will pass it. Seems to be the most overlooked code in my opinion and experience. But is it the plumber that gets called back when the shower smells like a locker room and mold is growing everywhere? No, it's the tile setter, even though it's a plumbing problem.


Vapor barriers are only required in showers when they are a steam shower. In that case, it's required to be not only waterproof but also vapor proof. They are not the same thing. Tyvek and roofing felt are great examples where both stop water penetration but both allow vapor emission.

Aside from that, vapor barriers are required wherever your local building code requires them. Here it goes between the studs and sheetrock on exterior walls. In the case of a tub or shower along an exterior wall, around here it's required that it have a vapor barrier but only required on those walls that are exterior. An interior shower or tub wall only needs a moisture barrier. It's not that way everywhere though with vapor barriers so check with your local building department.


I only hope that if your "tile setter" carpenter comes in with a bucket of mastic (aka premixed thinset) for the shower walls that you through him out of your house. The only thing to use is thinset, from a bag in a wet area.