Hi, I've looked for days and weeks on and off for something that resembled an answer to my question, and I haven't had much luck. Maybe the terminology I'm using is incorrect, so that's why my results haven't been right. Or.. maybe it's not supposed to be done, hence, people don't talk about it in such forums.

Currently, in my basement of my ranch house, my washer and dryer sit as far away from the supply and discharge drain as I can possibly stretch them. I'd like to either go a bit further to the left (say 3 feet) of my picture, or possibly rotate them 90 degrees counter-clockwise, and move them back 1 foot. I've read that there are codes in how many linear feet the drain can be from the ptrap under the concrete (5 feet is it? - but that the vertical just needs to be 1-2" above the spill level of the washer), but I'm not even sure where that ptrap is exactly. I've also gotten conflicting information from plumbers at big box stores as to any option I might have. In my crude paint picture, I have 'A', which is the current set up - drawn as a black pipe. The discharge pipe comes out of the floor at a 45 degree angle, then goes up the wall to 40" I believe (I need to measure tomorrow after I clean up, and take some pics). Option B, the red pipe would be if I was able to cut the current drain on the 45 portion, and 90 back towards the corner of the drawing, then 90 back forwards, before going up 90 to the discharge. Option C, the blue pipe, would be if I did not change orientation of the washer and dryer, but was able to move the drain pipe over to the left. Option B looked best in my overhead graph, but really either one would be OK.

The second of my two parter, is can I add a sink. There is no vent (maybe not the right term) to the current discharge pipe, as it's just open to the air. Since I don't want a double trap situation, can I drain into the discharge pipe? Are there concerns about sink backups, or any options that I have? It seems that if I didn't have a trap on the laundry sink, and I drained into the sink I might be OK? But, what if the sink was on the other side of a half wall, and instead of a utility sink, it was just a small wet bar-esque sink? I just renovated my kitchen, and was considering installing the cabinets down there as sort of a mini-kitchenette (the laundry room is off the TV room in the basement) so people could make popcorn / wash their hands after eating / set some plates in the sink / etc, without going upstairs.

I hope that wasn't too much, and that I somewhat explained what I'm trying to accomplish. I've talked to our city inspectors, but due to my work schedule, haven't had a chance to talk to them in person. They basically said I couldn't "double trap", and that's about as far as we got on the phone.

Thanks a ton! And please feel free to correct any of my poor terminology. I don't want to do anything considered poor practice, but I've finished the entire basement except this room, and the bathroom, and would like to see it through mostly on my own (I didn't mud the drywall... I'm not very good at that... I've tried.). The bathroom is roughed in, so this is really my last hurdle!
Tom

TS40ounce:

The distance issues you discuss are not as important as the distance from the ptrap to the vent connection... ok?

Vents and ptraps are an absolute requirement for all fixtures. Each fixture gets one ptrap and each fixture gets one vent.

In this case, a washing machine should get piped with 2" pipe and a 2" ptrap and it should have an 1.5" vent. The washing machine standpipe (coming out of the ptrap) should be a minimum of 30-36" tall. If you want to add a sink (any kind of sink), you can run that pipe 1.5" with an 1.5" ptrap and it should have an 1.5" vent.

You can run the 2" pipe for the washing machine 20 or even 30 feet if you want, but the vent must connect within 5 or 6 feet of the trap... ok?

You can combine these by piping things up as in the pictures below. The washing machine is on the left and the sink is on the right (ptrap is installed AFTER sink is installed). Code will also require a 2" cleanout just before the drain pipe goes into the concrete floor. Both of these pictures show correct plumbing/venting.

The vents will connect as below and then a single vent will need to run to another vent in the basement or it will need to connect to a vent upstairs (at 48" off finish floor minimum) or it may have to be piped into the attic and connect onto a vent up there.

Let me know if you have more questions...

MARK

Hi Mark - Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Vents and ptraps are an absolute requirement for all fixtures. Each fixture gets one ptrap and each fixture gets one vent.

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So does this mean that the stand pipe is vented somewhere else? I have a 2" standpipe as you assumed. Next to it, I have a 1.5" pipe coming up from the concrete, going upstairs. It goes upstairs roughly where I think my kitchen sink would be draining. Next to that is a 3" or 4" large waste stack (again, sorry if I'm using the wrong terms).

I guess my confusion is if there is no visible ptrap for the laundry standpipe, I'd have to assume it's under the concrete. So if that's the case, then I'm guessing I can't tie into the 2" at all for the sink drain? In your photo on the right, does that assume that below the sink (pre-ptrap) is no more ptraps? Or is it OK even if there was another ptrap? Is there a way to tell if my 1.5" pipe could be used for the drain of the sink? Or do you think that under the concrete, the standpipe is tied to that for venting before the ptrap? I'm sorry that I don't have a clear understanding of the correct way for drains to work... hopefully I didn't just ask a ton of stupid questions.

Also, where did the pictures you posted come from? Maybe in full size they'll make more sense to me. Is there anything I can do that would help clarify my confusion?

I'm going to head downstairs with a camera and a tape measure to hopefully be sure I identify my situation correctly... and will edit my post before hitting the hay.
Again, thanks a ton! I'm stuck in Costanza mode - "It's all just pipes!"
Tom

Hi Tom...

I am almost 100% sure the trap is NOT in the concrete... ok? Knowone ever does that except for a shower drain. To confirm this you should just need to shine a flashlight into the drain and see if you have any standing water. If water present then there is a ptrap... but I'm willing to bet money that water won't be there.

If the ptrap is not under the floor then you will be able to install washing machine and a new sink to this 2" pipe.

As pictured in my last post, you will need to vent each fixture and then connect the vents into 1 vent and run that vent and connect into another vent upstairs or in the attic.

You may also be able to install an air admittance valve (AAV) in place of running vent pipes upstairs, etc. but in most places these are not legal in terms of plumbing code. You would need to call your local plumbing inspector and ask if these are allowed in your area.

If you use a 2" studor vent (AAV) then you can combine vents and then connect a single AAV. If using an 1.5" AAV then I would have you connect one to the washing machine and one for the sink.

In terms of the enlarged pic. Below, pipes are facing into the other room, but you just need to turn the fittings so they face toward you to pipe for your situation. This picture includes a cleanout between the Tee fittings (good place for it). Also note that where the vents connect up high that the sanitary tee fitting is turned UPSIDE DOWN... that is code. Otherwise all should be obvious.

Let me know if need more...

MARK

Hi Mark - Thanks for the response. The rooms is a mess currently, so wasn't able to move the washer and dryer for better pics, but hopefully these will do. I cannot see water down the standpipe, as all I can see if the 45 degree bend. In talking to others, they seem to believe there is a ptrap under the concrete... but I'm not sure how I could know for sure.

I was wrong about having a main stack near the location... I'm not sure what I was thinking. Both pipes coming out of the concrete are 2" PVC. The pipe on the left has a clean out plug, then reduces to a 1.5" PVC pipe. That's my kitchen sink drain, and the pipe continues up through the roof as a vent. Can I tie another sink into this drain? I would think that since the kitchen sink has it's own ptrap, that I could tie into it, with another sink, and another ptrap. I'm not really confident I understand how things should be vented, or if that would be a bad thing (can one pipe be a vent and a drain)? Can one pipe be a vent and a drain? Or only if it's the highest fixture on the pipe?

In my limited knowledge, I was thinking that I could use that pipe for my sink drain, and an AAV for venting. The lady at the inspection office, and the guy at Lowe's thought they were fine, but I'm waiting for the actual inspector to call me back on Monday. If I can tie the drain into that 2" on the left, and vent via AAV, how tough is it to stick a SaniTee / Wye / not sure the name fitting on that pipe, since it likely won't have much give? In these cases, do you join your PVC drain back together with those compression sleeves?

Thanks again! You guys are great!

Hi again:

If you put your ear up to that washing machine pipe when someone runs water upstairs you should hear water flowing IF no ptrap present.

In fact, if everything is completely silent and you put your ear up to this pipe you should be able to hear water/sounds even if knowone is running water IF no p-trap present... check it out.

Otherwise, if inspector confirms that an AAV is permissible then sure you can connect the sink into that 2" pipe with cleanout. You would probably need to use at a minimum 1 of the MISSION CLAMPS (plastic to plastic) we spoke about as you can flip the rubber sleeve back on itself and slide the pipe/fitting into place pretty easy.

If AAV no good then you can still connect into the 2" pipe, but you will need to run a vent upstairs and connect onto a vent up there... ok?

Keep me posted... :)

MARK

About 12 years ago, when I first started plumbing, we used to plumb the washing machine trap in the slabs and had a vent added before p-trap in the slab similair to your situation, don't ask me why we did it that way, I was a newbie at the time, but after about 2 years the building codes changed and they said the 2" stand riser for a washing machine could not extend more than 4' from p-trap, and could not be less than 18", Im almost positive that you have a p-trap below the concrete, if what mass told you(about listening for the water) doesn't work, try getting some tubing and thread it down the drain until you hit bottom, then blow air into the tubing, you should hear gurggling if there is a p-trap.

I'm willing to bet the trap is under slab at this point too zosoplumber, and the tube trick is a good idea!

He will be connecting onto the 2" pipe with cleanout, however, so only needs to confirm the trap for his own health!

Which reminds me to tell him that if he does hear sounds (or bubbles... ;) ) then he will need to add a ptrap above the floor.

Thanks...

MARK

Great advice guys... I'm wrapping up the laundry to finish cleaning pre Super Bowl party, and will try it out. Not sure if I'll be able to get a tube long enough tonight, but that is a great idea to confirm.

I think I'm clear as to what my options are, and it all hinges on the AAV being permissible or not. If not, I think I'll just skip the sink, if so, then giddy up.

As to my initial question about teeing off the stand pipe over 3 feet or so, so I don't have 8' of hose running to it's current location, is that OK? Based on Mark's earlier comment, "You can run the 2" pipe for the washing machine 20 or even 30 feet if you want, but the vent must connect within 5 or 6 feet of the trap... ok?", then I should be good... especially if the vent and ptrap are below the slab right?

Thanks again, you guys have really help! I'll update this post with any info regarding sounds of water.
Tom

FYI - The building inspector gave the all clear on using an AAV to vent my new sink. As for moving the standpipe over a few feet, he was fine with that, provided I used 45 degree connections instead of 90's.

Thanks again for all your info! I'll keep an eye on other open questions so maybe I can return the favor for someone else!
Tom

Thanks for the update! Good luck!