I was going to install some wire into the service box tonight but had a problem. Now I am no electrician but I have read a few books and feel comfortable with the basics. I had a Master electrician (and his crew) install a new service line and box etc. (service was 60 amp upgrade to 150 amp).

This is the box...

Shouldn't there separate grounding bus bars in addition to the grounded (or neutral) bus bars? As you can see there are only neutral bars in this box. Okay I know that the neutral and grounding bars should be joined in the service box and end up going to the same place (the ground) but shouldn't they be kept separate except for that last connection in the box?

Is this installation good or should I be calling up this guy to get him to fix it? Please let me know what you think, it just doesn’t seem right to me to be installing both the neutral and grounding wire to the same bar. I am hoping I am totally wrong.

That's very common practice to have neutral and a ground in the bar and the same hole in the bar. When they are in the same hole for the same circuit on the bar. Its easy to trouble shoot and to remove together If something's needs changed.

1. I don't see a ground wire. i.e to a ground rod.
2. I don't see a plumbing bond.

This doesn't mean that the install is bad yet. Just don't know where they are made. (1) is usually done at the first disconnect. Is there a disconnect outside? (2) is done if the water pipes are copper.

(2) Hep2O® - Electrical Earth Bonding of Plastic Plumbing Systems

Your right that it doesn't appear right in the purest of installations, but that's the way it's done. At the first disconnect earth (ground rod typically) and neutral are connected together and the plumbing system and any metal (gas lines) is equpotential bonded.

Typically this is the point that the reference is created, so neutral and ground are taken as bring the same point. At any other sub-panels, the neutral and ground remain separate.

ONLY in highly sensitive installations will there actually be two grounds. A green, and a green with yellow stripe. One is protective ground and the other is a reference. This is WAY out of the realm of NORMAL wiring standards.

Having all grounds to the same bar and all neutrals to another bar and tied together at one point might happen someday, but not at the present time.

IF the ground/neutral connection is in the meter base, then the grounds and neutrals should be separated.

You have to tell us what you know about the earth ground and whether you have a disconnect outside.

You have to tell us a little about the plumbing and gas lines in the house. Are they metal?

I totally agree with " keep it simple stupid" A perfect A to Z for everything! Good job!

Sorry, but this is not entirely true:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

1.
IF the ground/neutral connection is in the meter base, then the grounds and neutrals should be separated.

---

Grounding the neutral is allowed to be done at the meter, and if the interior Main Disconnect is the only one, which I suspect is the case, the neutral and equipment ground DOES NOT get separated.


This "common practice" is only dictated when applicable:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 21boat

Thats very common practice to have neutral and a ground in the bar and the same hole in the bar.

---

Only occurs when the main Disconnect is in the panel.


This practice is not allowed:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 21boat

When they are in the same hole for the same circuit on the bar.

---

Unless the "hole" , or terminal, is rated to handle more than one conductor.

Inserting two wires into one hole indicates laziness.

Check the label on the panel, usually inside the door,to find the specs for the terminals.

When I have a panel such as this with two bars, even though they are "bonded" together in a panel with the Main Breaker, I still use one side for Neutrals and the other for Equipment Grounds.

I'll clarify even further.
Most new panels will accept up to three ground wires of the same size in one hole (typically #14-#10). The NEC dictates that the neutral termination "shall be used for no other purpose", meaning no ground and neutral together, ever.

I will say though, this is a very common practice that gets passed all the time by inspectors, that dos not change the fact that it is still a violation.

The only main disconnect is here at the box, the big breaker rated 150 amp. Above this and on the other side of the wall is the meter which I suppose the electric company could use as a disconnect.

Sorry you really cannot see where or how this is grounded from the picture. There are two sets of bare wire (pretty good size) connected to the bar on the left. These come up and out of the box. One goes immediately outside and although I have not checked I am confident that it ties into a grounding rod in the earth. The other set of bare wires goes across the basement to where the water supply comes into the house at the basement floor. This then ties into the main water pipe with a jumper over the water meter (in other words connected before the meter and after). Yes the plumbing is metal (copper)

Also, I should note that the neutral wire to the main service cable ties into the bar on the right. My understanding is that this protects against lightning strikes on the pole.

I was pretty confident that this was all correct above; my concern was not having a separate grounding bar. But if I am reading all your comments correctly that might exist in a perfect world but my set-up is practically fine.

Thanks for all your help, you guys are awesome!

The work looks a bit sloppy for my tastes but it looks like it's all hooked up in an acceptable manner.

I do need to ask about that orange cable out the side of the box. Is that what you are adding? If so, I'd suggest in the future that connection to the breaker should be the last step.

No that is part of what I am replacing, I did not do that work.

It does lead me to share some interesting info. The orange cable is 10/2 – W/G Romex. Get this the “electricians” who hooked this up used this to feed the 120/240 V dryer. The orange cable came out into that box and hooked up with the old fashioned dryer cable which did not have a ground. Then they hooked up the black to the black, red to white (and didn't put tape on it) and get this the bare ground to the neutral on the old wire.

Again, I am no electrician but I know enough to know that you cannot use bare grounding wire as a current carrying conductor. I know its only a few feet to the box but I thought this was really sloppy. I bet they just didn't want to use the more expensive 10/3 romex. That is what I am using and bisecting the box there completely and going straight into the service box

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Sorry, but this is not entirely true:

When I have a panel such as this with two bars, even though they are "bonded" together in a panel with the Main Breaker, I still use one side for Neutrals and the other for Equipment Grounds.

---

Wouldn't you worry about the bare equipment ground wires coming into contact with the hot bus in the middle possibly shorting out the whole thing? How do you get around that, cover with electrical tape?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by codyman144

Wouldn't you worry about the bare equipment ground wires coming into contact with the hot bus in the middle possibly shorting out the whole thing? How do you get around that, cover with electrical tape?

---

No, I would not worry about coming in contact with live parts, as I keep the bare conductors near the perimeter of the panel box interior. No need for taping.

Did you notify the installer of the #10-2 cable for a 120/240 volt dryer that the cable is wrong, and you paid for a code violation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Did you notify the installer of the #10-2 cable for a 120/240 volt dryer that the cable is wrong, and you paid for a code violation?

---

No I have not contacted him about this. What I think happened is that Mike the Master Electrician had 2-3 other guys do most of the work. Well he obviously didn't check their work too thoroughly. I think he was mostly concerned with the service entrance and panel installation. I have also found a metal junction box without a cover (another code violation).

But I am fixing this all myself now so what good is telling him now going to do? He will probably just get defensive and not listen anyway. Or think I have no idea what I am talking about.