Ask Me Help Desk - Visitation and support

I am a father living in Tulsa Oklahoma, 13 years ago my girlfriend and I had a son. We were together 3 years prior and 2 years after his birth. She filed for support and we both obtained attorneys we were instructed to file for divorce even though we were never married. Child support and visitation were set and ordered by the judge. Since our divorce I have seen my son a total of 12 times which includes one over night visit. Each visit with my son was only the result of me tracking her down and demanding time with my son. She has moved a total of 8 times, moving again each time I track her down. During all this I have managed to move on and re-marry, My wife and I have 3 kids together and are very happy. I am not opposed in anyway to paying child support when the support goes to the child's well being and maintaining a happy and stable home for that child. Not moving every few years and new cars for her. I have spoken with the child support enforcment office and they told me to get an attorney, child support and visitation are two separate issues. Which is amazing to me since they are both in the same order and divorce decree. To me these are not separate issues, they are the same issue. Unfortunately that is not possible because of my current financial situation. She gets my child support every month and my tax refund every year. If she wants to cutt me out of my sons life what are my options in cutting off her support? I know that when he gets older he will find ME! And ask me "why" I have no other choice but to tell him the truth. Which is, "your mother would not allow me to see you." By the way, she has no grounds for denying me visitation. This is the only way she can hurt me!
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Respectfuly, The support goes on...

Support and visitation are two separate issues and her denial of access to the child does not in any way relieve you of your obligation to pay support (there's a fancy defense to paying support in California called "concealment" which applies only in non-welfare reimbursement cases and requires a finding that the custodial parent actually hid the child from the co-parent through the age of majority-18, but that is a fairly unusual situtation and doesn't apply to you).

You should be focusing on taking aggressive action to enforce the visitation order. Look into holding her in contempt of court for violating the order and consider asking for a complete change of custody to you if it continues.

The old saying in family law is that the most quick way to lose custody of your child is to deny the co-parent access.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doorman3243

I am a father living in Tulsa Oklahoma, 13 years ago my girlfriend and I had a son. We were together 3 years prior and 2 years after his birth. She filed for support and we both obtained attorneys we were instructed to file for divorce even though we were never married. Child support and visitation were set and ordered by the judge. Since our divorce I have seen my son a total of 12 times which includes one over night visit. Each visit with my son was only the result of me tracking her down and demanding time with my son. She has moved a total of 8 times, moving again each time I track her down. During all this I have managed to move on and re-marry, My wife and I have 3 kids together and are very happy. I am not opposed in anyway to paying child support when the support goes to the childs well being and maintaining a happy and stable home for that child. Not moving every few years and new cars for her. I have spoken with the child support enforcment office and they told me to get an attorney, child support and visitation are two seperate issues. Which is amazing to me since they are both in the same order and divorce decree. To me these are not seperate issues, they are the same issue. Unfortunatley that is not possible because of my current financial situation. She gets my child support every month and my tax refund every year. If she wants to cutt me out of my sons life what are my options in cutting off her support? I know that when he gets older he will find ME! and ask me "why" I have no other choice but to tell him the truth. Which is, "your mother would not allow me to see you." By the way, she has no grounds for denying me visitation. This is the only way she can hurt me!
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Respectfuly, The support goes on.........

You have several things going on here. There is a lot your not aware of.

The reason you got a divorce is because you more then likely were married. ( no Im not joking )

Your only partly correct in that child support and visitation can be tied together. They are held separate by the courts but if custody times were to change to a more significant level then that would be grounds for changing the support. But in your situation they have nothing to do with each other until there is a change.

If you want to see your child then you must fight for that right. If your current custody order doesn't say much except visitation by permission then you need to go to court and have that changed to something you can live with. Also keep everything that is between you and her so you can take it to court to prove what she is doing.

Last but not least when you do get visitation with your child make sure its quality time between the both of you and never ever say anything bad about his mom to him. You can rebuild your relationship if you really want to.

References:

Common Law Marriage

Oklahoma5 (Okla. Stat. Ann. Tit. 43, § 1)
5) Only for common law marriage formed before November 1, 1998. (1998 Okla. SB 1076).

Your living together was well before 1998 by what you have said so you could have been married by common law.

I am going to be mean and cruel, so if you don't want to hear it, stop reading here.

You need to tell the whole truth, that you also did not care enough to fight for your visits rights, like take her back to court each time she will not let you visit then take her to court to find her in contempt,

So be sure to tell him the entire truth that you did not care enough to fight for him

Also does she have a house that she lives in ? Does she have food in the house ? That is what your child support goes for, so she has a car, does he ride in it.

Sorry you owe support to find, clothe and house the child, and if that is being done then it is being sued properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doorman3243

child support and visitation are two seperate issues. Which is amazing to me since they are both in the same order and divorce decree. To me these are not seperate issues, they are the same issue.

It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what the LAW says. And the laws of most states hold them to be separate issues. This is primarily the case so the child can't be used as a bargaining chip.

Who are you paying support to? If you are paying direct support then you should know where she is living. If you are paying support through an agency yhen they know where to forward the payments, so it shouldn't have been too hard to find her. And, as has been said, you should be going back to court every time the visitation order is being violated.

One other issue. Why is she getting your tax refund? Why aren't you adjusting your withholding to minimize the refund.

So you and your ex can't get along and you want to know how to stop supporting your child in order to get back at her?

I never cease to be amazed.

Thank you to all who have answered some questions for me! To clarify, I am in no way trying to get out of paying the support. My comment on the support "stopping" was more of a point. If she can stop visitation why can't I stop support? Not that I would! I believe that the custodial parent holds all the cards, so to speak. Whether it be the father or mother, the bitter truth is they use the children to get what they want because of the their feelings for the other parent. They do not consider the feelings of the children. Kids need both of there parents! Denial of support in my book is using the children as a pawn in there little game! The support I pay is automatically taken from my checks by child support enforcement, They also entercept all my tax refunds. She applied for this even though I was making monthly payment to her through her mothers address at her her request. I have spoken with an attorney in my area and the truth is, if I have $2500.00 to $5500.00 to pay up front he will begin working on this case with further cost to build up during the process until its end. This kind of cash up front and monthly costs to an attorney are beyond my means. It is not a question of "I didnt care enough to fight for him" As I mentioned before I am also caring for a family of 4 at this moment. Should these children I have with my current wife pay for it? I contacted child support enforcement many times to her where abouts, they will forward no information to me. All it takes is a bitter woman and her word to ruin a man , legaly! I respect the law but feel the law is one sided. Any service she may receive from the state regarding money or support collection are given to her free of charge. Any rights I may have within the law come at a very high price! So the question is, Who should pay the price? Me! With the feelings of loss of not being able to see my son. All the Birthdays and fathers days, the christmas I will never have with him. Or, The children in my home now? I do not care about myself! The feelings of ALL the children are in my best interest! I only hoped that my ex would take our sons feelings into consideration and forget about her own towards me! "all things end badly or they would never end" I am not a bad father or person, her feelings toward me are purely out of greed and lack of respect for others. So who is the one that doesn't care enough? To, as you would say "FIGHT" I think I am the only one who truly cares for my son. As to the statement that I should adjust my deductions to offset the support or my income. I file my taxes as I should no more no less, Isn't that the law? The subject of support and visitation raises a lot of questions and concerns for all. So, I "will never cease to be amazed" by all the finger pointing and questions of what is the moral thing to do. Life is a two way street with all responsabilities to be equal to each parent, that is what is best for the children! I was once told, "live life doing the right thing and nobody can ever point the finger at you." I am perfect in no way what so ever, but I try everyday to do the right things in life. Respect life and the feelings of others. Sometimes I fail and sometimes I succeed. What is worse, not trying at all or failing?
Thank you to all and God Bless!

My little quote! "what is worse? Going thru life beleiving in God and finding out he does not exsist or not beleiving in God and finding out he does exsist?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by doorman3243

Thank you to all who have answered some questions for me! To clarify, I am in no way trying to get out of paying the support. My comment on the support "stopping" was more of a point. If she can stop visitation why can't I stop support? Not that I would! I believe that the custodial parent holds all the cards, so to speak. Whether it be the father or mother, the bitter truth is they use the children to get what they want because of the their feelings for the other parent. They do not consider the feelings of the children. Kids need both of there parents! Denial of support in my book is using the children as a pawn in there little game! The support I pay is automaticly taken from my checks by child support enforcement, They also entercept all my tax refunds. She applied for this even though I was making monthly payment to her thru her mothers address at her her request. I have spoken with an attorney in my area and the truth is, if I have $2500.00 to $5500.00 to pay up front he will begin working on this case with further cost to build up during the process until its end. This kind of cash up front and monthly costs to an attorney are beyond my means. It is not a question of "I didnt care enough to fight for him" As I mentioned before I am also caring for a family of 4 at this moment. Should these children I have with my current wife pay for it? I contacted child support enforcement many times to her where abouts, they will forward no information to me. All it takes is a bitter woman and her word to ruin a man , legaly! I respect the law but feel the law is one sided. Any service she may receive from the state regarding money or support collection are given to her free of charge. Any rights I may have within the law come at a very high price! So the question is, Who should pay the price? Me! with the feelings of loss of not being able to see my son. All the Birthdays and fathers days, the christmas I will never have with him. Or, The children in my home now? I do not care about myself! The feelings of ALL the children are in my best intrest! I only hoped that my ex would take our sons feelings into consideration and forget about her own towards me! "all things end badly or they would never end" I am not a bad father or person, her feelings toward me are purely out of greed and lack of respect for others. So who is the one that doesnt care enough? to, as you would say "FIGHT" I think I am the only one who truly cares for my son. As to the statment that I should adjust my deductions to offset the support or my income. I file my taxes as I should no more no less, Isnt that the law? The subject of support and visitation raises alot of questions and concerns for all. So, I "will never cease to be amazed" by all the finger pointing and questions of what is the moral thing to do. Life is a two way street with all responsabilities to be equal to each parent, that is what is best for the children! I was once told, "live life doing the right thing and nobody can ever point the finger at you." I am perfect in no way what so ever, but I try everyday to do the right things in life. Respect life and the feelings of others. Sometimes I fail and sometimes I succeed. What is worse, not trying at all or failing?
Thank you to all and God Bless!

My little quote! "what is worse? Going thru life beleiving in God and finding out he does not exsist or not beleiving in God and finding out he does exsist?"

Unfortunately this is a legal board and so the advice is legal, nor moral, not "why," not "is this fair," none of that. It's purely a board about the law. Statements are taken at face value - when you say "stop support" the advice is given based on that statement. No one reads what you might mean into that statement.

Your questions are moral and involve relationships - while I'm sure everyone understands the turmoil, the law is not on your side on this one.

And, yes, it's not always fair. In fact, sometimes it's painfully UNfair.

OK, First the tax issue. By law you can claim as many deductions as you want on your W4 to reduce the amount of withholding. Generally, at tax time I get back less than $100. I refuse to make Uncle Sam any more of an interest free loan than I have to. You could be subject to penalties if you underwithhold. But if you look at your previous returns, you should be able to adjust your withholding (via the W4) to minimize your tax returns. Again this is all legal. If you use a tax preparer ask them.

As for fighting. I would not expect the support agency to tell you were your child is. But you can go to court and file a motion (you can do this per se - w/o an attorney) that the mother be heldo in contempt of court for not allowing court ordered visitation. The court will subpeona the agencies records and make sure she is served. The court should issue an order for her arrest on contempt of court charges if she doesn't comply. This is the way you fight.

I don't dispute that the scales are tipped to the advantage of the custodial parent. But they aren't allowed to defy a court order anymore than you are. But unless you continuely take her to court to enforce the order, you aren't fighting hard enough.