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-   -   Dems, Obama to nationalize 401(k) Plans? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=272806)

  • Oct 23, 2008, 12:27 PM
    speechlesstx
    Dems, Obama to nationalize 401(k) Plans?
    The Dems in congress are considering nationalizing 401(k) plans:

    Quote:

    Would Obama, Dems Kill 401(k) Plans?
    October 23, 2008 10:47 AM ET | James Pethokoukis | Permanent Link | Print

    I hate to use the "S" word, but the American government would never do something as, well, socialist as seize private pension funds, right? This is exactly what cash-strapped Argentina just did in the name of protecting workers' retirement accounts (Efharisto, Fausta's Blog). Now, even Uncle Sam isn't that stupid, but some Democrats might try something almost as loopy: kill 401(k) plans.

    House Democrats recently invited Teresa Ghilarducci, a professor at the New School of Social Research, to testify before a subcommittee on her idea to eliminate the preferential tax treatment of the popular retirement plans. In place of 401(k) plans, she would have workers transfer their dough into government-created "guaranteed retirement accounts" for every worker. The government would deposit $600 (inflation indexed) every year into the GRAs. Each worker would also have to save 5 percent of pay into the accounts, to which the government would pay a measly 3 percent return. Rep. Jim McDermott, a Democrat from Washington and chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee's Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support, said that since "the savings rate isn't going up for the investment of $80 billion [in 401(k) tax breaks], we have to start to think about whether we want to continue to invest that $80 billion for a policy that's not generating what we now say it should."

    A few respectful observations:

    1) McDermott is right when he says the savings rate isn't going up. But the savings rate doesn't include gains to money you invest in the stock market. It ignores the buildup of net worth. (If you bought a share of XYZ Corp. in January at $100, for instance, and its value doubled by December, the savings rate measure would still value that investment at $100. In short, the savings rate is a phony number.)

    2) So based partly on the above faulty logic, the $4.5 trillion, as of the start of the year, invested in 401(k) plans doesn't count as savings.

    3) Ghilarducci would have workers abandon the stock market right at the bottom of the market. A stupid idea, according to Warren Buffett: "I don't like to opine on the stock market, and again I emphasize that I have no idea what the market will do in the short term. Nevertheless, I'll follow the lead of a restaurant that opened in an empty bank building and then advertised: 'Put your mouth where your money was.' Today my money and my mouth both say equities."

    4) Ghilarducci would offer a lousy 3 percent return. The long-run return of the stock market, adjusted for inflation, is more like 7 percent. Look at it this way: Ten thousand dollars growing at 3 percent a year for 40 years leaves you with roughly $22,000. But $10,000 growing at 7 percent a year for 40 years leaves you with $150,000. That is a high price to pay for what Ghilarducci describes as the removal of "a source of financial anxiety and... fruitless discussions with brokers and financial sales agents, who are also desperate for more fees and are often wrong about markets." Please, I'll take a bit of worry for an additional $128,000.

    5) What effect would this plan have on an already battered stock market? Well, I would imagine it would send it even lower, sticking a shiv into the portfolios of everyone who didn't jump aboard. But I am sure the Chinese would love to jump in and buy all our cheap stocks to fund the retirement of their citizens.

    My bottom line: If you believe in the long-run dynamism of the American economy, then you have to believe in the stock market. Listen to superinvestor Buffett, not the prof from the New School.
    Yes, the Democrats are here to help you. Do you want the same guys that offered us "affordable housing" managing your (formerly) voluntary private retirement savings?
  • Oct 25, 2008, 02:38 AM
    tomder55

    Jimmy P. may be afraid to use the "S" word but I have no problem with using it .SOCIALIST NANNY STATEISM !!!! The Dems could give a crap about people's account fluctuations .They are more concerned with the $80 billion in tax revenue they can't get their grubby fingers on.

    People are afraid because their 401(k) accounts are seeing some volatility, so Democrats will seize on the opportunity
    To attack a program where investors control their own destiny. The Yahoo article I initially read about this says that the money would be invested in special government bonds that would pay 3 percent a year, adjusted for inflation.

    I got these comments by an Atty from RI though an e-mail exchange I was having yesterday about this subject . I will not otherwise provide a source:

    “Special government bonds” of the same vehicle currently used by Congress to siphon Social Security taxes out of the so-called “lockbox” and spend it today on earmarks and other “essential government services.”

    The trouble is when the principal is due on those “special government bonds” there's no money to pay for them except from the then current taxpayers. In effect this is piggybacking a second Social Security system on top of the existing one, and the existing one is heading for failure because it goes cash flow negative in about 10 years when projected payouts start exceeding projected Social Security tax revenues, and the only “assets” it has in its lockbox are “special government bonds” that will either be defaulted upon or paid for by taxpayers, who in effect will have been taxed twice ($2) in order to send out one dollar in Social Security benefits.

    In reality all this is is a major tax increase: the taxes currently deferred thanks to 401(k)s no longer will be so, so Congress gets all additional money to spend. Meanwhile the 5% payroll tax ( on top of the existing FICA taxes) will also immediately go to Congress for it to spend. And it will.
    Since the money will all be spent, workers of today will have to hope that workers 30 or 40 years from now will be willing to pay taxes sufficient to cover than current government operating expenditures and the principal payback for those trillions of dollars in “special government bonds.” Unlikely. So current workers retirements will be even more at risk than they are now.
    Note also that there doesn't seem to be any mention of what the end “benefit” formula would be for workers. Presumably the 5% from pay will be imposed upon all earnings, but like the current Social Security system the benefit will be capped. So middle class and above earners real “benefit” will decrease in relation to their increased earnings and commensurately increased “contributions.”

    Moreover, what's to prevent Congress from adding a “progressive” structure to this tax in the future?

    Finally, a US Supreme Court case from almost 50 years ago declared that individuals have no right to Social Security benefits-that Congress can reduce or eliminate Social Security benefits at any time, even as somebody is paying into the system for years. In other words there is no vesting or property right to Social Security benefits. Don't be surprised if the same structure would be implemented with this new system.
  • Oct 25, 2008, 03:00 AM
    NeedKarma
    I guess your country is going down the crapper.
  • Oct 25, 2008, 03:07 AM
    tomder55

    The 401(k) is a great way to self-finance retirement. But as the debate over Social Security proved ,there is no way the government will allow individuals to break the dependency from the national state.
  • Oct 25, 2008, 03:16 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    They are more concerned with the $80 billion in tax revenue they can't get their grubby fingers on.

    Hello tom:

    I don't know. Your Republican friends just got their hands on $850 BILLION. I don't hear no sniviling about that. Maybe cause they were Republicans..

    Bwa, ha ha ha.

    excon
  • Oct 25, 2008, 03:37 AM
    tomder55

    You know my position on the bailout. Also it is a bipartisan theft . I did not see many Dems. If any vote against it . There were 111 courageous Republicans in the House who did .

    You keep on talking about balancing the deficit and yet you support a candidate who has proposed a trillion dollars in immediate ADDITIONAL spending by the government just on his Orwellian named " refundable tax credits " .Obama's proposed income-based health-insurance subsidies, tax credits for tiny businesses, and expanded Medicaid eligibility would cost another $1.63 trillion in entitlement spending.Obama has also promised to spend more on 176 other programs, according to an 85-page list of campaign promises compiled by the National Taxpayers Union Foundation to the tune of $611.5 billion over the next five years; and $1.4 trillion over a decade .

    He has already said he will pay for it by an all out assault on American business profits. But he and his Democrat band of Robinhoods know that they cannot collect enough revenue by simply destroying American business. They know that they also have to manke an assault on American taxpayers. Since they already propose taxing them to as much as can be beared ;their only remaining source is the little savings that Americans have squirreled away.
    Meanwhile they will bemoan the lack of personal savings that happens in this country.
  • Oct 25, 2008, 03:50 AM
    excon
    Hello again, tom:

    I don't know again. You guys keep worrying about the front end stuff, but you don't seem to be bothered by the back end stuff, like printing zillions - WHICH IS A TAX - a tax forced upon you by REPUBLICANS!! Maybe it's cause they hide it, and/or give it some fancy name...

    But, you Republicans don't fool me...

    excon
  • Oct 25, 2008, 05:33 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    I guess your country is going down the crapper.

    That's exactly why I don't want the Democrats in charge of everything. We can't afford it.
  • Oct 25, 2008, 05:57 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    You keep on talking about balancing the deficit and yet you support a candidate who has proposed a trillion dollars in immediate ADDITIONAL spending

    Hello again, tom:

    Like you, I don't support every position my candidate takes. In terms of fiscal policy, they're BOTH proposing increased spending, and BOTH of them are inflaters. BOTH of them are too liberal for my taste.

    So, I'm not going to choose on economic matters...

    But, in terms of his cool head under pressure, his positions on national security, his views on the Constitution and the rule of law, his positions on Gitmo and torture, his Supreme Court opportunities, and his positions on energy, convinces me that Obama stands head and shoulders above McCain.

    excon
  • Oct 25, 2008, 12:54 PM
    inthebox

    I wonder if the majority of these politicians in congress and the administration have:

    - 401[s]

    - private health insurance?

    The politicians should be the first guinea pigs for their bright ideas :p


    When I was a federal employee 2005-6, I had private health insurance and a retirement in private mutual funds.

    I want Warren Buffet to manage my retirement, not some government bureacracy. :)

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