Ask Me Help Desk - What Did Cain seek to Accomplish?

I really can't pin down what Cain felt he was accomplishing by killing Abel. God had rejected his sacrifice and Cain was angered. Killing Abel would not change that rejection into acceptance. In fact it would obviously increase the rejection since he was warned before he killed Cain to change his attitude. If indeed Adam and Eve were more pleased with Abel as well, killing him wasn't going to change their opinion. As in God's case it would make it worse. So the only reason I can imagine is that he considered Cain a reminder of his inadequacy and decided to get rid of that constant reminder.

I also have difficulty understanding why Cain didn't fear how God might punish him. He was aware of the cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life and of Adam and Eves banishment from Eden. So he knew God would definitely react. Yet he plowed right ahead!

Opinions are appreciated.

I don't think Cain was trying to accomplish anything. He was in rage. We see every day stupid and horrible things people do when enraged.

As for not fearing God; a similar answer: we see many people who know God doing horrible things. Can was no different.

Do you think I oversimplify?

I agree with Rick. Cain was very angry. People do things they wouldn't normally do when they are in a rage. Cain likely wasn't thinking of G-d at the time at all. In fact, he might have felt remorse about it afterwards... he did try to deny it, after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickj

I don't think Cain was trying to accomplish anything. He was in rage. We see every day stupid and horrible things people do when enraged.

As for not fearing God; a similar answer: we see many people who know God doing horrible things. Can was no different.

Do you think I oversimplify?

Not at all, you are pointing out that behavior based on anger doesn't necessarily have to be founded on a planned detailed purpose. As you know, that's exactly why our courts of law make a distinction between crimes of passion committed under the overwhelming emotions and a murder scrupulously planned beforehand. Now, that's exactly what we don't know about Cain. We do know that he was warned to control himself otherwise sin would prevail. But the details of the killing are not provided.

He wasn't executed but simply banished. There was also a prohibition forbidding anyone from killing Cain. Perhaps that would indicate that he was overwhelmed by anger?

Of course at the minimum Cain was trying to inflict pain at the very least since he knew that striking someone as hard as he did inflicts that sensation.
Perhaps he meant only to injure and not kill?

He had also likely seen animals go for one another's throats after God removed a portion of his blessing from the earth. So the observation of one animal killing another might have shown him just how easily he could get rid of someone who annoyed him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orange

I agree with Rick. Cain was very angry. People do things they wouldn't normally do when they are in a rage. Cain likely wasn't thinking of G-d at the time at all. In fact, he might have felt remorse about it afterwards... he did try to deny it, afterall.

True, anger does have that blinding effect sometimes.

That's why we are told to avoid it and the things that can lead to it or related to it:

Ephesians 4:31
Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.

Another example of anger getting the upperhand and leading to violence is in relation to
Jacob's sons Sineon and Levi who used deception and murdered in order to vent the anger they felt due to disrespect they felt had been shown to their sister.

Genesis 34:30-32 (New King James Version)

30 Then Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, “You have troubled me by making me obnoxious among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites; and since I am few in number, they will gather themselves together against me and kill me. I shall be destroyed, my household and I.”

31 But they said, “Should he treat our sister like a harlot?”

BTW
Why would Cain assume that God could be fooled via denial?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starman

I really can't pin down what Cain felt he was accomplishing by killing Abel. God had rejected his sacrifice and Cain was angered. Killing Abel would not change that rejection into acceptance. In fact it would obviously increase the rejection since he was warned before he killed Cain to change his attitude. If indeed Adam and Eve were more pleased with Abel as well, killing him wasn't going to change their opinion. As in God's case it would make it worse. So the only reason I can imagine is that he considered Cain a reminder of his inadequacy and decided to get rid of that constant reminder.

I also have difficulty understanding why Cain didn't fear how God might punish him. He was aware of the cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life and of Adam and Eves banishment from Eden. So he knew God would definitely react. Yet he plowed right ahead!

Opinions are appreciated.

This event goes just a tad beyond normal sibling rivalry. God demanded worship and sacrifices, and when Cain and Abel offered them, he received one and rejected the other; and further, when Cain was wroth on account of his sacrifice not being accepted, the Lord said to him, "Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 'Wroth' is an old, not obsolete, word meaning very angry, much exasperated. It is related to 'wrath.'

Abel was told to offer up sacrifice, and he did so. He brought the firstlings of his flock and offered them up as a sacrifice to the Lord; and the Lord accepted his offering. Cain offered up the first fruits of the earth. Cain went to work and offered his sacrifice. Some have said that Cain acted hypocritically and that the Lord knew of his hypocrisy and deception, and of his plotting and planning against Him because he loved Satan more than he loved God and, that is why the Lord would not accept his offering.

Cain was extremely annoyed about it. He wanted to serve the devil, and at the same time receive the blessing of God, the same as many do to-day. They would like the blessing of God, but want to have the devil mixed up with it. Finally, the Lord spake to him. He asked him why he was wroth, and why his countenance was fallen? I presume that he tried to make out that he had not been treated right, in that the Lord accepted his brother's offering and would not accept his. But the Lord told him: "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door."

After a while he coveted his brother's flocks and herds, and in order to get him out of the way, he killed him. The Lord again interrogated Cain. "Where is Abel, thy brother?" And he said, "I know not; am I my brother's keeper?" "What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground." And the Lord went on to tell him that for his crime he should be looked upon as a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth because he showed a spirit of hatred against God, His laws and His people.

The following footnote from Kitto's might shed some light on your subject as it gives the ground of explanation for the acceptance of Abel's offering for a sacrifice, the firstlings of his flock; and the rejection of Cain's offering, the fruits of the ground (Gen. iv:3-7). The one was brought in compliance with the appointment of God, the other was not of divine appointment, but was an unwarranted deviation from the commandment, hence, "the Lord had respect unto Abel and his offering," but not unto Cain's.

In Kitto's article on "Sacrifices" there is another very great reason urged as to why Abel's sacrifice was acceptable and why Cain's was not. It is reasonable, and in harmony with the importance of the whole doctrine of the Atonement, and I have nowhere else found the idea so well expressed.

"It amounts then to this—that Cain, by bringing an eucharistic (expressing thanks merely) offering, when his brother brought one which was expiatory, denied virtually that his sins deserved death, or that he needed the blood of Atonement. Some go further, and allege that in the text itself, God actually commanded Cain to offer a piacular [expiatory, atoning] sacrifice. The argument does not require this additional circumstance; but it is certainly strengthened by it. When Cain became angry that Abel's offering was regarded with divine complacency, and his own refused, God said to him, 'Why art thou wroth; and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.' Now the word 'chattah,' translated 'sin' denotes in the law a 'sin-offering' and the word translated 'lieth' is usually applied to the recumbency of the beast. It is therefore proposed to translate the clause, 'sin-offering coucheth at the door; which by paraphrase would mean, 'an animal fit for a sin-offering is here, couching at the door, which thou mayest offer in sacrifice, and thereby render to me an offering as acceptable as that which Abel has presented." (Kitto's "Bible Literature, Art. "Sacrifice.")

M:)RGANITE

At this point and time, knowing God was a more one on one personal experience, they actually talked to and with God, there was no written rules, no formal relgiion.

You lived your life and offered God part of what you did.

In that anger, what do people do when they get angry today, a women cheats on her husband and he kills them ( does not make since)
A man gets fired by his boss, so he goes in and kills other employees.

A high school student is made fun of by the foot ball team and goes into the lunch room and kills almost anyone else but the foot ball team.

Often when we can not strike out at the person or one who we are mad at, we strike out at those who are there. When someone you know is mad, do they often perhaps also yell at you.

So he also though that without his brother, then he did not have to compete against someone else, his would be the best.

And also the same as today, he did not truly understand Gods knowledge and abilities either. ( we often try to express God in terms of what man can or can't do)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganite

Cain went to work and offered his sacrifice. Some have said that Cain acted hypocritically and that the Lord knew of his hypocrisy and deception, and of his plotting and planning against Him because he loved Satan more than he loved God and, that is why the Lord would not accept his offering.

After a while he coveted his brother's flocks and herds, and in order to get him out of the way, he killed him. The Lord again interrogated Cain. "Where is Abel, thy brother?" And he said, "I know not; am I my brother's keeper?" "What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground." And the Lord went on to tell him that for his crime he should be looked upon as a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth because he showed a spirit of hatred against God, His laws and His people.

M:)RGANITE

What is the basis for some saying without a doubt that Cain coveted Abel's flocks and herds and that Abel loved the Devil and wanted to serve both the Devil and God. Do they
Mean he actually thought it was possible to do both. Or do they simply mean that Abel's actions were tantamount to an attempt at worshipping both even though he might not have been aware of it? Isn't it just that Cain wasn't thinking about the Devil at all. Many people today take sides with the Devil via their behavior but the Devil is the farthest thing from their minds.

Well the story as I know it goes before the offering... the offering being rejected was the last straw... if I remember correctly Cain was born a twin to a girl and Abel to another and it was said that each had to take for a wife the twin of the other... Cain was in love with his own twin but he couldn't be with her because of Gods command… and so had to see her with Abel day in and day out…
He was jealous of Abel and that jealousy got shoved to its limits when God favoured Abels offering over Cains. Abel being the little brother Cain felt ashamed, angry, lonely, and abandoned he decided that all his troubles had one source… Abel.

And well the rest is history…

The distinction between the siblings is marked, and emphasised if we ask ourselves first, "Who is it that motivated the action of each of the boys?"

M:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZK85

Well the story as I know it goes before the offering...the offering being rejected was the last straw... if I remember correctly Cain was born a twin to a girl and Abel to another and it was said that each had to take for a wife the twin of the other... Cain was in love with his own twin but he couldn't be with her because of Gods command… and so had to see her with Abel day in and day out…
he was jealous of Abel and that jealousy got shoved to its limits when God favoured Abels offering over Cains. Abel being the little brother Cain felt ashamed, angry, lonely, and abandoned he decided that all his troubles had one source… Abel.

And well the rest is history…

Would apreciate if you provide the source of the story. Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starman

Would apreciate if you provide the source of the story. Thanks!

Sure thing... you might want to take a read at "The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden". Also both Jews and Arabs seem to agree on this... here is a few links that I hope will help :)

http://www.scripturessay.com/q36.html

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=173&o=43869

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starman

I also have difficulty understanding why Cain didn't fear how God might punish him. He was aware of the cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life and of Adam and Eves banishment from Eden. So he knew God would definitely react. Yet he plowed right ahead!

Opinions are appreciated.

Hmmmm... I think Cain thought that God wouldn't find out it was him that did it... that's why he said "am I my brothers keeper?" to God when he asked him where his brother was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZK85

hmmmm....I think Cain thought that God wouldnt find out it was him that did it... thats why he said "am I my brothers keeper?" to God when he asked him where his brother was.

That would require Cain to underestimate God's power.
What basis did Cain have to assume God was unable to detect his crime?
Or could it have simply been he knee-jerk reaction to being asked? I guess we'll never really know. But it's interesting to hear the different viewpoints. Thanks for the feedback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZK85

sure thing... you might want to take a read at "The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden". also both Jews and Arabs seem to agree on this... here is a few links that i hope will help :)

http://www.scripturessay.com/q36.html

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=173&o=43869

Thanks for the source and the links.
I once had similar links stored at my website but lost them when I dismantled it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZK85

sure thing... you might want to take a read at "The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden". also both Jews and Arabs seem to agree on this... here is a few links that i hope will help :)

http://www.scripturessay.com/q36.html

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=173&o=43869

For what it is worth, you can read Forgotten Books of Eden online. You will find it highly speculative.

http://books.google.com/books?id=cG5...BQq0h1RG7SfJ9s

M:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starman

That would require Cain to underestimate God's power.
What basis did Cain have to assume God was unable to detect his crime?...

Remember that Cain never saw God... he heard him but never saw him... he knows that God is powerful but how powerful is he may not have been known to him... and come to think of it what basis did he have to think that God would find out? Surely this was the first crime of this sort and no one was around...

I am sure Cain would have minded his manners when he said "am I my brothers keeper?" I mean who would snap at God when he is sure that he is talking to him? So more likely it was a sort of "gee God I don’t know where he is...my brother could be any where *whistle while pretending to be innocent* " kind of thing… :)

Well that’s just my opinion on the matter… :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganite

For what it is worth, you can read Forgotten Books of Eden online. You will find it highly speculative.

http://books.google.com/books?id=cG5...BQq0h1RG7SfJ9s

M:)

Thanks for the links.
Yes, I know that the info is highly speculative. But I suspect that in some way something of what occurred back there was passed on from generation to generation. I guess one way to stay on the safe side is to put it through the scriptural sieve in order to evaluate it. For example, if Satan is portrayed a mankind's benefactor then I would reject it. Or if another woman is said to have been given Adam prior to Eve-Lilieth, I think they call her. That too I would personally set aside since it goes completely contrary to what Genesis tells us.

BTW
We have to be careful because there is demon-inspired propaganda out there which blames God for all the evil and makes the Devil out to be a nice guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZK85

Remember that Cain never saw God... he heard him but never saw him... he knows that God is powerful but how powerful is he may not have been known to him... and come to think of it what basis did he have to think that God would find out? Surely this was the first crime of this sort and no one was around...

I am sure Cain would have minded his manners when he said "am I my brothers keeper?" I mean who would snap at God when he is sure that he is talking to him? So more likely it was a sort of "gee God I don't know where he is...my brother could be any where *whistle while pretending to be innocent* " kinda thing… :)

Well that's just my opinion on the matter… :)

You make some good points which I had also considered but which now I view as very probable. Thanks for the feedback!

The answer is subject to interpretation of the characters. If you believe cain and able are actual men, or representation of men or groups of men, or cultures in the area at the time. Cain was a tiller of the soil, while able was a shepard. This is at a time where an agricultural revolution was under way. The end of pre-history, and the beginning of modern man.
Cain's system of agriculture is evident today. Producing more and more food results in producing more and more humans. Those humans must expand their area. Not in an evil way to them, but as your family grows you need a bigger house. This culture of cain has absorbed other cultures of differing traditions.. how can you compete with a system that uses all rescorces in an area for the purpose of limitless population growth.

Cain was killing able even into this century. How did the white man conquer the west. By driving off another culture. Cowboys killed the indians... cain still is killing able.

It is a Jewish myth about the negative power of anger. Anger leads to violent thoughts, leads to violence, leads to murder.

Christianity is about forgiveness and love... therefore a peaceful mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starman

I really can't pin down what Cain felt he was accomplishing by killing Abel. God had rejected his sacrifice and Cain was angered. Killing Abel would not change that rejection into acceptance. In fact it would obviously increase the rejection since he was warned before he killed Cain to change his attitude. If indeed Adam and Eve were more pleased with Abel as well, killing him wasn't going to change their opinion. As in God's case it would make it worse. So the only reason I can imagine is that he considered Cain a reminder of his inadequacy and decided to get rid of that constant reminder.

I also have difficulty understanding why Cain didn't fear how God might punish him. He was aware of the cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life and of Adam and Eves banishment from Eden. So he knew God would definitely react. Yet he plowed right ahead!

Opinions are appreciated.

According to what is recorded in the Torah, orally preserved for thousands of years and faithfully written via scribes, "Cain" is understood to be first mentioned to have committed murder. He sought G-d's favor and blessing by disobedience. Personally, I don't think he understand the consequence. Cain did, however, not only murdered in his shortsightedness, but coveted. His sinful actions are violations in two of the commandments contained on the Decalogue.

Bobby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Choux

You interpret the Old Testament's stories literally; I didn't know that. No wonder you turned on me. :) The stories are myths! in my opinion.

Yes, there are many literal things that as Jews, we accept. There are also Jewish stories (aggadot) presented in the Talmud that are legends, jokes, and ethical tales. However for Jews it's our history of understanding of that which is literal and what is aggadot. Now the fact is that there are many literal things that Atheists and Agnostics accept. It's your blatant opinionated myth accusations concerning my Faith that is tiring. And for you to say I turned on you is ignorant, besides hypocritical. Yes, you have an opinion. Now my opinion is that one hundred years from now after most us of have been long forgotten, G-d's Torah will continued to be studied, revered, and revealing.

Bobby