I'm not going to sit here and say who to vote for, or who not to vote for, the purpose of this message is not to sway people one way or the other, but rather to point out a problem that I see in the Church regarding politics.

We can Vote as individuals however we want, and why not, it's a freedom one I hope everyone reading this message holds dear, the issue that I see is the Church within the US choosing sides in the election, Pastors have thrown their support behind candidates

"I am such a strong admirer and supporter of George W. Bush that if he suggested eliminating the income tax or doubling it, I would vote yes on first blush." - Jerry Falwell

But that was the previous president, we're now in 2008 and Mccain is now the republican presidential candidate. Today I found a video that I found (as a christian) to be disturbing.

YouTube - Rev. Arnold Conrad at McCain Rally - Jesus versus Obama? Rev Arnold Conrad putting GOD's reputation on the line for Mccain to win. If Mccain doesn't win does that mean that GOD is not as powerful as the other gods or that Christianity is wrong? NO! Then again GOD didn't speak from the heavens saying he'd ensure Mccain or Obama would win. This is the principal point I want to make, Christianity has become so intertwined in republican politics, that non Christians will look at the church as supporting wars that had no basis (WMD's in Iraq), a president who tried to privatize Social Security before this economic crisis, a church that is in favor of Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo Bay.

Christians have to show the world they they follow Jesus, not the guy who won the republican primaries. The Church needs to show the world that they follow a Man who refused to let his followers from taking revenge on the servant who was arresting him, but rather healed the ear of that servant, instead of following a man who thought the Keating 5 was a pretty good idea.

That all said, if you want to vote republican for whatever reason go for it, if you want to vote democrat for whatever reason go for it, I just ask that you do so as an individual not as a church, as JFK said:

"I hope that no American will waste his franchise and throw away his vote by voting either for me or against me solely on account of my religious affiliation. It is not relevant." - John F. Kennedy

There are serious issues, first people who are Christian ( and other religions as for as that go) are suppose to live their faith,
so if you are actually living your faith, you would want to vote for those people that would run your country with your moral values..

So for a christian to vote for someone that does not have their views ( not that I see either really having good christian values) is showing the world that they do not live by their values.

This is part of the trouble the church has stopped doing its job or educating people on moral values and does not get people to live their values.

But the person who is elected should have course follow the moral values of the nation,

The republicans claim of course to have a lot more of the values of the Christian church, in practice they seldom do,

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Originally Posted by Beta-guy

.... that all said, if you want to vote republican for whatever reason go for it, if you want to vote democrat for whatever reason go for it ....

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You have politics and you have religion.
From me you may believe whatever you want. And you may have your political preference, whatever that is.

I wonder if you would have posted the same topic if the US had an equal Christian / Muslim population.

Religion is in essence about the hereafter.
Politics is in essence about today and tomorrow.
Religion and politics do - for the biggest part - not cover the same fields of interests.
Let's keep it that way.

Keep Church and State separated !!!

:rolleyes:

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Things have sort of turned around. The founding fathers tried to incorporate their beliefs into the governing of america.
Then with the twisting of the meaning of 'separation of church and state', the state really did separate from church. But the people did not.
So, in order to secure votes, the politicians have to influence influential preachers, who attempt to evangelize the vote.
Just as government has forsaken religion, the people should forsake religious leaders.

1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that would lead you astray.
1Jo 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

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Originally Posted by cogs

things have sort of turned around. the founding fathers tried to incorporate their beliefs into the governing of america.

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All the founding fathers intended was to keep the right to believe (and to believe in what) reserved to all.
At the other side the founding fathers were in majority opponents of any involvement of religion on political life.
Many came from England and had seen the terrible consequences of religious involvement in politics.

:rolleyes:

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again, I think it's backwards. The founding fathers saw the encroachment of england's government on their freedom of religious expression.
they were christian men who understood that true freedom was spiritual, and should have no hindrance to expression from imposed law.
the fathers did not want to interject their own christian beliefs, and likewise tied the hands of further governments, not necessarily christian, from enacting religious legislation; thereby separating state from church.

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Originally Posted by cogs

... they were christian men who understood that true freedom was spiritual, and should have no hindrance to expression from imposed law.

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Incorrect !!!

The founding fathers were a mix of theists, not Christians. Many were proclaimed Deists.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

...
The founding fathers were a mix of theists, not Christians. Many were proclaimed Deists...

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Yes, they believed in the god of the bible:
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

American Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Dissenting (i.e. Protestant non-Church of England) churches were the “school of democracy.”[cite this quote] Puritans and Presbyterians, and other Protestant denominations, based their democratic principles and willingness to rebel against tyrants on their reading of the Hebrew Bible.[citation needed] The stories that influenced their political thinking the most were Genesis, which taught all men were created equal, Exodus, with its story of the ancient Israelites defying Pharaoh and escaping to freedom, and the Book of Judges, which taught there is no divine right of kings.[7] "Founding Fathers" such as Benjamin Franklin, Samuel and John Adams, were raised as Puritans, reading the Geneva Bible which had marginal notes throughout what they called the "Old Testament", which preached against kings as tyrants, church hierarchy, or obeying wicked laws.[8] James Madison stayed an extra year at Princeton University to study Hebrew and Scriptures under the famous pro-democratic Presbyterian theologian, President John Witherspoon.[9] Witherspoon, one of the most educated men in America, was the most influential academic in American history, according to Michael Novak.[10] His sermons linking the American Revolution to the teachings of the Hebrew Bible influenced an entire generation, including twelve members of the Continental Congress, five delegates to the Constitutional Convention, and scores of officers in the Continental Army.[citation needed] One famous sermon on the Israelites rebelling against Pharaoh was distributed to 500 Presbyterian churches seven weeks before the Declaration of Independence, preparing people's consciences to accept this revolutionary act.[11] Throughout the colonies, ministers preached Revolutionary themes in their sermons, and organized their congregations as the basic unit of Revolutionary War politics.[dubious – discuss] This religious motivation for Independence was not limited to an intellectual elite, as was Enlightenment thinking. It included rich and poor, men and women, frontiersmen and townsmen, farmers and merchants.[12]"

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Originally Posted by cogs

yes, they believed in the god of the bible

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No they did not.
In a time that belief in a god was more or less demanded by local culture, they all stated to believe in God.
Some of them mentioned to believe in the God of the bible. Others did not. Because they were Deistst.

Deism in the United States (LINK)

In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of separation of church and state, expressed in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Founding Fathers who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence. Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, John Adams, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen [32] and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout America and Europe). Elihu Palmer (1764-1806) wrote the "Bible" of American deism in his Principles of Nature (1801) and attempted to organize deism by forming the "Deistical Society of New York."


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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