Hello everyone.

My ex moved out of state where it would take a 5 hour flight (give or take if there are no layovers) to get there.

We parted amicably, he pays his child support and is remarried. We all get along fine. (for saying so's sake) There are no court orders for support and we do not have legal visitation papers which were filed with the Court. As I mentioned, we parted amicably and things have been very smooth for the past 10 years.

My question is, my daughter is 11 years old. He would like to have her come out to visit. I am not comfortable with putting her on a plane, even though I understand that they have people who accompany children on a flight, for this trip.

I spoke to him the other day, I said I'd like to wait till next year when she is older before considering this.

My question is, do I have to allow her to go and visit, if I am this uncomfortable?

How would the laws work with regard to visitation if one party choses to move out of state?

As I've mentioned intentionally, things are amicable however the wife is continuously asking me about dates. If not November of this year, how about after January 2008.

My thing is that I want her supervised by them specifically, not some flight attendant.

I also think, if I allow her to go, which she misses them and my intention is not to deny her from seeing her father but overall concern for the distance... that it should be during the summer for a week vs. a visit for 3/4 days when it's during the school year.

I hope I'm being clear. Please ask questions if I have not been.

p.s. No the wife isn't being ridiculous or anything I think she feels that perhaps I'm trying to deny them something and that is not the case.

I will have to have a live conversation with THEM not just her via email shortly. However I would like input as to how this type of thing would work.

As I mentioned I'm not against my daughter going, I would like to know the proceedures as to how this type of thing works overall.

Thank you so much for your time.

First, is there is no court ordered visitation, then the custodial parent has discretion.

But saying that, I suggest you go along with the father's request.

Unless there is some disability involved here, I would strongly suspect that a court would order you to allow her to travel. At 11 yrs old, I think the court would deem her old enough to travel alone. The airlines have provision for children traveling alone. You will hand her over to an attendant who will see her onto the plane and into her seat and turn her over to one of the plane crew (or the attendant may be part of the plane crew). On the other end, the attnendant will accompany her off the plane and stay with her until the party picking her up has been properly identified.

I really think your fears of allowing her to travel are unfounded. I would venture the say the courts would allow this for children even younger. So if it comes to a fight you will lose. Better to avoid the fight.

It's not that I don't wish her to see her father. I'm all for it. It's the length of the flight and... well... as her mother, I've never been away from her for more than a day and a half. This is, of course, outside of the legalities of the matter. I mean, he chose to move out of state so that he could prepare for retirement. Which, of course, is his right.

At the same time, (aside from my mom fears of her being unattended or attended by a stranger) I'm not comfortable with it being for a few days.

I'm thinking... summer would be better. Now :) I'm not all that sure that I would handle a week but it wouldn't interfere with school. We actually do not have an entire week this year.

I understand that my personal views have nothing to do with the law. ANd I'm not saying that I would "never" concede to her going out there. I'd prefer things to go along as well as they have been in the communication arena.

I tried to advise them of dates a week or so ago and... I got so uncomfortable that I discarded the email so I could think on it a while. That discomfort prompted me to pose the question I have here.

Thank you Scott for your input.

You definitely have the right to insist that she not be taken out of school for this visit. The courts would affirm that.

But other than that, I think you should be able to mutually agree on some dates.

I may feel more comfortable with that. I doubt it... I am open to it though. As I've mentioned already, I'm not adverse her going, I'm just really not comfortable with her going on such a long flight w/o supervision and her being with someone she knows.

He would pay the air fare that's not an issue. I thought perhaps they could be prompted to travel both ways with her.

See, we had a situation where she was at a camp and one of the mentors there (a 60 year old fella) put his hand on her behind, while hugging her good bye. Why the hug was necessary I don't know. But, that also made me "a lot" more leary of entrusting my daughter to strangers.

This fella was arrested as he did it to a couple of other young girls as well. The pig...

There are charges filed and we're waiting for the outcome of same. So... I mean, you just never know what can happen.

Simply put, I'm afraid. I understand that we can't protect our children at all times. The incident I just explained is an example of this. However, it's really unnerving.

Thank you for your responses Scott, they are appreciated.

As scott pointed out if you keep denying the father and he gets sick of listening to you then he will go to court and win. I believe for most alone air travel the age is six and over but I'm not absolutely positive on that. So you see she is well over that. Because if anything it is younger not older that the judge will order them to travel. The father does not have to travel with her. I realilze that you don't want her to go alone and at this point the ball is in your court but it won't be for long if you don't start changing your game. You don't have to take her out of school but thanksgiving break is coming up soon that would be a longer break to allow her travel then the winter break too. The other thing to think about is that if you are wanting her home for thanksgiving so that's the reason you are putting it off more and more if he does go to court he will get every other holiday as well.

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Originally Posted by stinawords

As scott pointed out if you keep denying the father and he gets sick of listening to you then he will go to court and win. I believe for most alone air travel the age is six and over but I'm not absolutely positive on that. So you see she is well over that. Because if anything it is younger not older that the judge will order them to travel. The father does not have to travel with her. I realilze that you don't want her to go alone and at this point the ball is in your court but it won't be for long if you don't start changing your game. You don't have to take her out of school but thanksgiving break is comming up soon that would be a longer break to allow her travel then the winter break too. The other thing to think about is that if you are wanting her home for thanksgiving so that's the reason you are putting it off more and more if he does go to court he will get every other holiday as well.

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And I will add that this is one of those situations where a Court order regarding visitation is not a bad idea - it could very well set guidelines for traveling companions, length of the visit, who pays for the tickets and so forth. In this case ultimately the person who physically has control of the child makes the decisions. If the child visits the father and for whatever reason wants to stay or the father wants her to stay, this is going to be a mess, the same kind of situation that's posted on the legal threads all the time. The question is always, "If there is no custody agreement is it kidnapping?"

Friends or not friends with my ex, I want a custody agreement which spells everything out.

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Originally Posted by Defendant66

ISee, we had a situation where she was at a camp and one of the mentors there (a 60 year old fella) put his hand on her behind, while hugging her good bye. Why the hug was necessary I don't know. But, that also made me "a lot" more leary of entrusting my daughter to strangers.

This fella was arrested as he did it to a couple of other young girls as well. The pig...

There are charges filed and we're waiting for the outcome of same. So... I mean, you just never know what can happen.

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So what happened here? Your daughter recognized that this was inappropriate behavior and reported it to someone and action was taken, right?

No you can't protect your daughter, but it would appear she knows what inappropriate behavior is and knows how to deal with such situations. All the more reason to trust her.

It's only just come up now within the past month or so. They've been out there two years and were here last July for a visit and saw her then. I liked that better.

I haven't denying anything just yet. I haven't agreed either and I've expressed my concerns to him about the air travel. He has said he understands.

You know... I have to say, as you've brought it to my attention in your reply. When they lived in the state they never asked to have her on the holidays. Not once... not ever. They always saw her after the holiday, usually the weekend after and visitation for the past 10 years has been... at minimum, every 2/3 months and from a Saturday at approximately 1:00 pm through to Sunday at approximately 5/6:00 p.m.

So... "really" while I understand the whole issue with visitation and the days off she only has 2 days off this year, Thursday and Friday...

I understand that things have changed now due to their choice to move to another state, "however"... do you know what? It makes me feel like... for all these years, when they were here, it wasn't a big issue to see her, and they never asked for her on the holidays but after the holidays... never once did they ask to have her on a holiday.

Now because they have moved, and it's convenient for flying time and everything, I have to change my lifestyle and hers to suit them?

So... while it's not completely all about me and having her for the holiday, it's more about the flight and safety of it all... and my mom fears (admittedly)

What just struck me, after reading your post, is that THEY move and everyone else's life has to change?

That's uh... a bit of an eye opener for me. I'm uhm... I'm not happy.

I'm not going to be a jerk about this, however... at the same time, I feel a bit... angry. Yes... that's it. I feel angry because they didn't go out of their way for her to go see them when we were closer. Yet it feels like... now that they are away, and I respect that they want to see her and he has the right to see her... and while I intend to keep it amicable... now that things are different... my lifestyle has to change?

What about all the years they were here and they never asked to have her on a holiday. I think I need to take a little break because the more I'm thinking about it, the less... amicable I'm feeling.

Let me go sit with my thoughts here for a spell.

So while I wouldn't mind her going for the holiday... that's apparently a sore spot. I didn't even realize was there.

You know... he could have had every other holiday to begin with but it was never asked and/or discussed... not once. Okay, I'm going to sit with this a bit.

Thank you for your input though, it's appreciated.

Frankly I think you are working yourself up where you shouldn't. Did you ever think that they didn't visit her over holidays out of consideration for you? Or maybe the step mother wanted holidays with her family. Instead.

Yes a move does usually necessitate changes. I really don't see these as onerous.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

And I will add that this is one of those situations where a Court order regarding visitation is not a bad idea - it could very well set guidelines for traveling companions, length of the visit, who pays for the tickets and so forth. In this case ultimately the person who physically has control of the child makes the decisions. If the child visits the father and for whatever reason wants to stay or the father wants her to stay, this is going to be a mess, the same kind of situation that's posted on the legal threads all the time. The question is always, "If there is no custody agreement is it kidnapping?"

Friends or not friends with my ex, I want a custody agreement which spells everything out.

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JudyKT... You know what Judy? This actually crossed my mind a while back. I thought, they wouldn't dare take her and keep her would they? I'm a good parent, there have never been issues in the past about any of this...

I think... this is getting to be a bigger and bigger issue. Although, I'm a fan of cooler minds prevailing. If this turns into a legal thing that opens up an entirely different can of worms as well. I receive child support every two weeks, that's never been an issue and he provides health insurance for her. The amount for the child support has never been increased for any uhm... what is that called? Oh, cost of living increase in any way.

It's not been an issue and I viewed it as, things are good, she's taken care of so we'll leave things as they are. However if this all gets into a legal battle... it won't be pretty. I can imagine my personal resentments over certain other issues over the years spilling out in to the pleadings even as I type this response to you.

THAT is something that I do not wish to do. A daughter needs to know her father cares about her. He's not a bad person, he just decided to move. The wife is asking me more pointedly about dates. Which we get along fine, however... I was a bit taken back by her seeming insistence. Which is why I've taken a step back and... am seeking input from those more well versed in this than I am.

So... are you saying that I should have a custody agreement drawn up? It has crossed my mind that something you're saying could happen.

And you know what? Come my daughter's teen years, and I hate to speculate about these things so far in advance, but it's not unheard of... one day she could decide she doesn't like my rules and would have it better at dad's house...

Oh my. Way to tap into all my quiet fears in one day huh?

I think you have to be practical, not panic, look at all of the sides of things.

You're on good terms with your ex and I don't see any problem telling him you're concerned about the plane trip, who will accompany your child (of course, leave out the how much you'll miss her part - hopefully he already knows that), you wondered if you could come to a written agreement about the plane fare and who will accompany her and so forth.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

Will he keep her? I very much doubt it and didn't mean to panic you - but, again, I think you have to be practical. I've read your posts and I know you think things out, express yourself well, so you have to just sit down and think about the good in this, the bad in this and come to your conclusion.

And keep in mind that the million people who send their children off for visitatation and don't have problems don't post here - I only read the posts from the very small percentage where it turns into a problem.

And, exactly - what if some day Dad says she can have a car and stay out until 1AM and you say no. The Court won't do what she wants but why get into the hassle...

Maybe I've been in some end or another of the legal business for too long but the fly by the seat of your pants things frighten me and make me uneasy.

I would guess you are emotionally in a fragile place about this because it's not like he's in your town and she visits every other weekend.

I can see that you are getting overwhelmed but the reality of the situation is that yes you NEED to get a custody order. Also child support is based on his income not cost of living so toss that thought out. In no way am I trying to be rude but he has rights and will get them. You have the right idea to let yourself cool off because if you go into court with an attidude like you seem to be getting the judge will not look kindly on it and you will end up worse off than had you keept your cool and taken the visitation schedule with a smile. Yes, he will get every other weekend and as Judy pointed out maybe he took her after the weekend in consideration for you. Also with the thanksgiving break it is a total of four days off she could fly out on Wed after school and back Sunday morning that isn't at all unheard of.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Frankly I think you are working yourself up where you shouldn't. Did you ever think that they didn't visit her over holidays out of consideration for you? Or maybe the step mother wanted holidays with her family. instead.

Yes a move does usually necessitate changes. I really don't see these as onerous.

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Hey Scott. That's not 100% it... see, he never really asked to see her all that often. I always felt that he was remiss in that he didn't make those efforts. I've kept quiet about it for quite a while. I can see, however, how you would interpret me as working myself up... and perhaps I am...

There is a pattern of behavior here for the past 10 years where 2/3 months (or more) would go by, so if my daughter saw him 5/6 times out of the year it was standard. The wife is a nice person, we get along. However, at the same time... it, to me, is the father's responsibility to take the steps with a new partner to say "I want my daughter to attend certain things". She did go to some stuff... but it wasn't a lot.

This never happened nor was it discussed at any time. I just had her for everything. Which is fine... she's my daughter. Sure they bought her lots of stuff on her birthday, and at christmas and had an easter basket for them. We lived an hour and a half away from one another, which... to me wasn't that big of an issue, they could have seen her more often.

You know... gifts don't replace time with her father. I respect we all move on and have different lives, I do. I respect that he's in a relationship with someone else as well. I have no issue with this either.

This topic, seems to have woken up things that have bothered me, which I've remained quiet about for a long time.

Like, last summer they were out for a week to visit. They came got her on her birthday, spend the day with her and dropped her back off. That was very nice... then I found out that they were here for a week. And all they afforded her was 1 day.

She didn't know that, but I was hurt on her behalf... because I felt like, they could have had her come with them since they were here and be the family oriented we miss her enough to have her stay over a night or two... I know the new wife has family, but he came with other family.

Still... I realize that... in these cases, we need to try to focus on the outcomes we want and not our personal emotional responses to same. I may be reacting a bit harder than I want to... at the same time, this is a new issue for me, which has woken up others that I was... quiet about.

I mean, hey... if it's for one week over the summer, I could live with that. Judy brought up a good point about custody and what if later on my daughter thinks dad's house is more fun... course it is, he's not her disciplinarian :) I am... LOL... I'd want to go live at dad's too!

I hope I've been clear... I'm doing my best.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

So what happened here? Your daughter recognized that this was inappropriate behavior and reported it to someone and action was taken, right?

No you can't protect your daughter, but it would appear she knows what inappropriate behavior is and knows how to deal with such situations. All the more reason to trust her.

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Scott, Yes... Scott, I was so proud of her for listening to me! LOL.. you know, kids sometimes we wonder if they listen. I was so proud of her for discussing it with the two other girls and then going to someone to report him with the other two girls. Further, I always, always, explain things to her about personal space and inappropriate behavior or treatment by others. There is "fair and reasonable" treatment in life and then there's just bad behavior. I think even adults make too many excuses for bad behavior... (but I digress)

And then after the police department called me at work (a parent's worst nightmare, I assure you) and I collected my thoughts "before" I got there... we went to the police department in the municipality that it occurred and she made a statement to the very nice fella who was assigned to the case. After that we talked about her feeling guilty about it, and I advised her that "people know when they do the wrong things and he made a choice to do the wrong thing, and he should get into trouble for it. It's not your fault."

This isn't a matter of trusting her... it's my personal fears. If truth be told, it's all about my person fears... about letting her go and if she'll be all right... I'm a parent. Who doesn't worry about their children?

We don't want to stiffle them, we worry about their well being, we are elated for them when they achieve something and cry when they are disappointed... we worry about them making the right choices later on in life and ALL THE WHILE knowing full well that we have no control over anything.

Ha... you know, I don't want to stiffle her in any way, I don't and would not want to stop her from seeing her dad... Fear does funny things to people... to me right now.

If I were responding to someone else's post, had I the relevant knowledge in these matters, I wouldn't be emotionally attached to the outcome.

I'm willing to bend... I'm just... afraid. Yeesh... imagine when she goes to college? OH GOD! LOL

Thank you for your input I appreciate it...

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I think you have to be practical, not panic, look at all of the sides of things.

You're on good terms with your ex and I don't see any problem telling him you're concerned about the plane trip, who will accompany your child (of course, leave out the how much you'll miss her part - hopefully he already knows that), you wondered if you could come to a written agreement about the plane fare and who will accompany her and so forth.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

Will he keep her? I very much doubt it and didn't mean to panic you - but, again, I think you have to be practical. I've read your posts and I know you think things out, express yourself well, so you have to just sit down and think about the good in this, the bad in this and come to your conclusion.

And keep in mind that the million people who send their children off for visitatation and don't have problems don't post here - I only read the posts from the very small percentage where it turns into a problem.

And, exactly - what if some day Dad says she can have a car and stay out until 1AM and you say no. The Court won't do what she wants but why get into the hassle ....

Maybe I've been in some end or another of the legal business for too long but the fly by the seat of your pants things frighten me and make me uneasy.

I would guess you are emotionally in a fragile place about this because it's not like he's in your town and she visits every other weekend.

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Thank you Judy... I do try to think things through. Thank you for the compliment on expressing myself well. I appreciate it. You know what I do during the day Judy? :) I'm a legal assistant... I don't do matrimonial law, maybe I should... I'm good with people. LOL I could help them remain calm in situations like this. Course, for those I wouldn't be emotionally attached to the outcome, which would make it easier for me.

I don't think you've been in the legal business too long. I think with your experience, to leave no stone unturned or unthough of is wise. That's what you do...

I appreciate that your intention wasn't to panic me. I think though that I'd be paniced... anyway... She's never been out of my sight for more than a day and a half... To consider puttin ghe ron a plane... so far far away from me, from anythign that I could do if she got sick or was hurt... and if I couldn't get there? No... I'm really not a pessimist by nature... this is good old parental fear.

I agree with you, I need to call him up... and express how I feel specifically. I think his wife's good intentions of asking me again and again about dates... irritated me. I know that people also tend to allow paranoia to slip into their mind, they don't think things through rationally at all times, we tend to react...

So, I thought... I'm going to see about the family law area here and post and ask. Because I wasn't coming up with logic at all. In this, you all have been very helpful.

I reserve the right to... worry anyway. But at least I understand how this would work, could work and have given myself some information to sit back and think on.

Thank you Judy I appreciate your input.

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Originally Posted by Defendant66

Thank you Judy ... I do try to think things through. Thank you for the compliment on expressing myself well. I appreciate it. You know what I do during the day Judy? :) I'm a legal assistant... I don't do matrimonial law, maybe I should ... I'm good with people. LOL I could help them remain calm in situations like this. Course, for those I wouldn't be emotionally attached to the outcome, which would make it easier for me.

I don't think you've been in the legal business too long. I think with your experience, to leave no stone unturned or unthough of is wise. That's what you do...

I appreciate that your intention wasn't to panic me. I think though that I'd be paniced ... anyway... She's never been out of my sight for more than a day and a half ... To consider puttin ghe ron a plane ... so far far away from me, from anythign that I could do if she got sick or was hurt ... and if I couldn't get there? No...I'm really not a pessimist by nature... this is good old parental fear.

I agree with you, I need to call him up ... and express how I feel specifically. I think his wife's good intentions of asking me again and again about dates ... irritated me. I know that people also tend to allow paranoia to slip into their mind, they don't think things through rationally at all times, we tend to react ...

So, I thought ... I'm going to see about the family law area here and post and ask. Because I wasn't coming up with logic at all. In this, you all have been very helpful.

I reserve the right to ... worry anyway. But at least I understand how this would work, could work and have given myself some information to sit back and think on.

Thank you Judy I appreciate your input.

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Sure - come back and let us know how it's worked out. (There are so many people posting here with legal experience, legal education, we should start a private club. Or a law firm. We could call it Defendant66 and Friends.)

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Sure - come back and let us know how it's worked out. (There are so many people posting here with legal experience, legal education, we should start a private club. Or a law firm. We could call it Defendant66 and Friends.)

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I will... I'm going to think it through thoroughly. I know too that I've lost a lot of people in my life, have little to no family and that compounds the issue for me. I have great friends and support systems so they take the place of family for us.

Now, "because of this" I would like my daughter to feel and maintain a relationship with her father. Certainly... I'm just afraid. That's really what this all boils down to. In order to think rationally about it, I came here to ask questions and give myself information as to what goes on in these types of situations... and I have received a great amount of information and support. Which I appreciate.

Oh yes! Lets start a firm! I would LOVE THAT! LOL... We could hand pick and chose the attorneys and staff so that it is an environment of team work and communication... and getting things done. THat would be amazing... I would love that. I really would.

I'm currently looking to find such a firm actually. I've been working with a fella who... isn't the best person to work with. So I'm diligently looking for another position.

You know... law is simple (if I may say so) when emotions and poor communication come into play... that's when the problems start. In my humble opinion.

Here's to working well with those around us. I prefer it actually.