Hello! I have a wrought iron furniture and lighting design company based in Florence, Italy. We have a large project we're working on for the States, which includes several chandeliers, sconces and pendants.

Our client has asked us to get in touch with their electrician, who will be installing the pieces. I know that he told them that we should be using 16 gauge AWG on the chandeliers.

My partner has gotten copies of the documentation of the wires available to us here, which are supposed to be used on these pieces. Personally, I am not an electrical expert, but I'm really trying to understand the situation to make sure that everything is going to work just as it should. I should mention that our distributor is the largest supplier of international wiring in our area. Also, my partner has been designing lighting for many years, and the companies he has worked for in the past have also always used this supplier successfully.

The wires our supplier is giving us are 18 AWG. What is the difference between 18 AWG and 16 AWG?

Also, the papers say the standard application for this wiring is: "internal wiring of external interconnection of electronic equipment (such as desk-type calculator, dictation machines or X-ray equipment)." So is this also right for lighting?

One of the chandeliers has been built with 18 extensions, meaning it's going to hold 18 different bulbs. The average for the other chandeliers is about 8. We have decided not to use transformers on these pieces to avoid any complications between the Italy/US switch.

I have tried answering my questions through various sources online, but to no avail. In addition to my questions, can anyone recommend good sites on the subject?

This is really important, and I don't want to sound like an idiot to the electrician or send a piece that I'm not 100% sure about. It's also kind of urgent.

Many, many thanks in advance for helping me through this!

I believe you can use the 18, as many chandeliers I've bought in the US use 18, but I am not an expert on code. Wait for TK or Stan, etc to reply.

Okay, thank you.

I really need the help!

Someone should reply soon. I'm fairly certain that 18 is OK for internal wiring of fixtures as well as cords. However if your client is requesting 16, and is paying you for 16, you should use 16.

The difference is in the thickness of the wire. The smaller the number, the thicker the wire, and the more current it can carry safely.

We are very concerned with putting out optimum quality work every time. Most of our business comes from europe, but we do have clients around the world. We have used another company in the past, and they use the same distributor with whom we've put in the order. The client doesn't know anything about electrical systems. He spoke with his electrician, who wants to make sure that the wires we will be using are right, specifically because european wires and currents are different from those used in the US. He talked about 16 AWG to our client for the chandeliers, and I'm preparing an email with our information for the electrician. Our distributor has given us 18 AWG for the purpose we specified.

My partner has now shown me two different wires. I've been told that the lighter of the two is what goes inside the chandelier, and that it gets attached to the 18 AWG. This is the one that's supposed to get connected to the existing electrical system through the ceiling. The only thing is that the wire that's supposed to be the 16 AWG doesn't have 16 AWG written on it. The paperwork makes me think that it may be another kind of 18 AWG too. Does this sound right to you?

In the meantime, thank you for telling me what you know. I really hope someone can help me to resolve these questions!

The insulation rating is as much important as the size, If you go 16 Gauge, you can't go wrong, if you go 18 gauge, they may think you are skimping, or tyying yo save a buck.

Please look at my previous posts. I don't know anything about the actual difference in quality between the two. I don't know anything about this kind of wire, period.

We want to make sure the wire is the right kind for the job. Their electrician I mentioned has not seen any of the pieces, so I'm also curious to know why he would have mentioned 16 AWG. Is the difference between 16 and 18 AWG minimal or really significant?

No one is trying to save money on this project, or on any other project. I have this wire given to us by the distributor, and I'm trying to understand the situation. My partner is the one who has been in contact with the distributor. How much would the difference be between the two wires... a couple of bucks? I may be wrong, but I would be surprised if using the AWG would make it look like we were somehow going the economical route. If the experts think I'm wrong, please say so! I really want to understand the difference.

Written on the wire itself:

(UL) SPT-2 18AWGx2C VW-1 105[degrees]c E77975 wonderful CSA SPT-2 18AWGx2C FT2 105[degrees]c LL43774

Specification: Electrical & Physical Properties

Style: 105[degrees]C 300V FLEXIBLE CORD
Size: 20288 105[degrees]C 18 AWG X 2C

Item: 18 AWG X 2C
Rating temp voltage: 105[degrees]c 300V
Conductor resistance: 23.25 OHM/KM/20[degrees]C MAX.

Thanks for your input.

Help me please!

The 18 is probably fine, Internationally, it MAY need to be larger? Not trying to say using 18 is being cheap, may be fine, At 220/240 volts, bulbs will draw about half of what 120 would draw.
#16 may be overkill. Hopefully someone knowledgeable in international code will provide additional info. Good Luck.

SPT-2 is suitable for pendant or portable per table 400.4 (flexible cords and cables) of the NEC (national electric code). The 18AWG you were supplied can be used for up to 10 Amps per table 400.5(A).

For the chandeliers and sconces you will need to use a different wire. Suply some more info and maybe I can suggest some, what temperatures are normal where the fixtures are going to be used? Are they for outdoor use?

Now aren't you glad you asked?

Tev, What type of wire should he use?

There are a lot of options Strat. I'm not comfortable making a suggestion unless I have more information to base it on. Indoor or outdoor and what temps can be expected. I want to suggest TFN or TFFN but if it's to be used outdoors in a cold climate I wouldn't suggest either of those.

I'm waiting to hear from TK.

Hi, thanks. I'm a she, not a he. It's all for indoors. They're all high end, handmade wrought iron pieces.

Like I tried explaining earlier, I don't have any kind of extensive vocabulary when it comes to wires or electrical work. Since we are in italy, we won't have the same variety of american wires that I'm sure is available in the states.

Here's a basic list of some of the pieces. They're also being fitted for american bulbs. To avoid extra complications, we're not using transformers.

1 chandelier: 16 bulbs
4 chandeliers: 8 bulbs
1 chandelier: 5 bulbs
1 flush mount lighting fixture: 6 bulbs
5 single light sconces (various styles)
3 hanging pendants

What I am sure of is that the wires we have, which happen to be 18 AWG, are certified exclusive to the US. The main details of my questions run through the first posts. I really appreciate your help on this, so thank you!

You really want to use "fixture wire"

See Cords and Fixture Wires

The minimum size is 18 which is good for 6 amps, 16 AWG is good for 8 amps.

Which means:

18 AWG, 6 A, P=6*120, 720 W max
16 AWG, 8 A, P=8*120, 960 Watts max

for the wire.

Now, if you parallel the combination, then you should be able to wirenut/crimp into a wire, like a white and black single properly rated conductor for a single connection to the ceiling box.

White should be connected to neutral or the screw part of the base. Black to hot or the center of the bulb socket.
Green should also be provided. I doubt anyone will complain if you use the wire with the green with a yellow stripe for ground.

I doubt many know the blue and brown colors. I would not use these for the US market.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

You really want to use "fixture wire"

See Cords and Fixture Wires

The minimum size is 18 which is good for 6 amps, 16 AWG is good for 8 amps.

Which means:

18 AWG, 6 A, P=6*120, 720 W max
16 AWG, 8 A, P=8*120, 960 Watts max

for the wire.

Now, if you parallel the combination, then you should be able to wirenut/crimp into a wire, like a white and black single properly rated conductor for a single connection to the ceiling box.

White should be connected to neutral or the screw part of the base. Black to hot or the center of the bulb socket.
Green should also be provided. I doubt anyone will complain if you use the wire with the green with a yellow stripe for ground.

I doubt many know the blue and brown colors. I would not use these for the US market.

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Thanks for your help, but you totally, totally lost me. :( I'm not the one doing the wiring, but I'm the one communicating between the client and our electrician. My understanding is that once the pieces are wired, only one wire is left sticking out, and it's black. We do have another kind of wire, but that's not color coded either. Yes, we usually use the blue and brown wires, but since those are exclusive to europe, we won't be using those here.

Could I ask you to look over my earliest posts? I think they explain my question(s) best. Again, thank you!

If you tell us what wattage bulbs are going to be used in each fixture and how many then we can tell you what size wire is required.

You cannot use the SPT-2 cord that you were given for these fixtures, you can use any of the 32 types listed in NEC table 402.3 for fixture wire. I would go with TFFN but it may not be available from your supplier. If not then try TFN, TFF or TF.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tev

If you tell us what wattage bulbs are going to be used in each fixture and how many then we can tell you what size wire is required.

You cannot use the SPT-2 cord that you were given for these fixtures, you can use any of the 32 types listed in NEC table 402.3 for fixture wire. I would go with TFFN but it may not be available from your supplier. If not then try TFN, TFF or TF.

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I'm assuming the bulbs would be max 60, more likely to be used with 40 or 25 watt bulbs. Each of the bulbs gets its own wire. Then those wires are connected to a final wire that sticks out of the piece. Then that wire gets connected to the existing electrical system by their electrician.

Why wouldn't the wires we have work for the lighting?

Also, why would the distributor give them to us, knowing the purpose for which they are intended?

We had an electrician here look at them, and he seems to think they're what's used. Again, I want to be sure.

We haven't purchased the wire yet. We have been given samples and the paperwork that certifies it as proper for use in the united states. I have asked my partner to investigate to see what else, if anything, is available. Here, pieces are made for the international market all the time. We have also successfully made pieces for countries all over the world, from europe to russia to south america and on and on... why would this be the exception?

Sorry for the multiple quotes, it just seemed like it was the only way to address everything here without multiple posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linnealand

why wouldn't the wires we have work for the lighting?

also, why would the distributor give them to us, knowing the purpose for which they are intended?

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1.They would "work" but they wouldn't be up to code in the US.

2.Not all lighting is equal, the wire they suggest is listed in our code only for specific lighting uses. The fixtures you are creating are not one of those uses. The table lamps in my living room have cords made from SPT but I could not use that same wire for wiring a chandelier or sconce. Also, our code is updated and changed every 3 years. At one time that wire may have been acceptable for those uses but it isn't now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linnealand

we had an electrician here look at them, and he seems to think they're what's used. again, i want to be sure.

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They very well may be what is used in other places for this application, but not in the US. Your supplier and electrician are incorrect when it comes to the United States, but you can't really expect them to know the requirements in every country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linnealand

we have been given samples and the paperwork that certifies it as proper for use in the united states.

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It is proper for use in the US, just not for this application.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linnealand

we have also successfully made pieces for countries all over the world, from europe to russia to south america and on and on... why would this be the exception?

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Our minimum requirements are different than other countries. Our National Electric Code (NEC) is nearly 800 pages of minimum requirements for electrical work and the construction requirements of the materials used in the work, that is the book I am getting my information from. As for the exception part, all countries are different, this is just one way in which the US is.

Heh, forgot half the post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linnealand

i'm assuming the bulbs would be max 60, more likely to be used with 40 or 25 watt bulbs. each of the bulbs gets its own wire. then those wires are connected to a final wire that sticks out of the piece. then that wire gets connected to the existing electrical system by their electrician.

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So 16 bulbs at 60 watts each is 960 watts so you would need to use 16awg for the largest fixture. Assuming none of the fixtures will use more than 60 watt bulbs, all the other fixtures can be 18awg.

Not exactly. Or depends. Since it's likely that the bulbs will be wired in parallel (one to a cable) or each wire will see 60 W/120 V or about 0.5A. All of these wired together would connect to a larger wire. That wire should likely be no less than 16 AWG.

LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG *
LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG * * * * 16 AWG White
LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG *


LAMP(BASE Center) -18 AWG *
LAMP(BASE center) - 18 AWG * * * * 16 AWG black
LAMP(BASE center) - 18 AWG *


*******************************typically green Ground


Typically houses are wired with 14 AWG and sometimes 12 AWG.

No one uses 1000 W of lighting in a room unless this thing is HUGE.

My home Crystal Chadelier: 5 bulbs at 40 W each on a dimmer over dining room table.

120 W is usually plenty bright and that's about max for an average sized room. Many single fixtures have a maximum of 60 W for the lamp because of the enclosed globes.

Hanging lamp over kitchen table. 4 bulbs at 25 W each. Usually 2 are unscrewed part way so they are off.

FWIW (For What It's Worth) Incadescent lamps will be disapearing from the US