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My question isn't very concise, but since jesus was in the flesh we're in, then how did he do miracles, say he's the way to god, be the sacrifice for our sins, and resist temptation. I'm not asking why, or on what grounds, but I'm asking by what method, and why we can't do this?
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, perfect man, was the perfect vessel for the Holy Ghost. He did not begin His ministry until after He was baptized by John the Baptist, at which time the Holy Ghost in form of a dove settled on him and a voice was heard from Heaven proclaiming Him to be the Son of God.
Acts 10:37-38
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
(KJV)
Acts 2:22
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
(KJV)
John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(KJV)
You ask why we can't do these things today? They are being done when men believe what God says.
Thanks for that... I'm reading it little by little. From reading, right now it almost seems like god focused his energy into the fleshly world, which would have been purity molding itself into flesh. It would seem as if the order of the holy spirit guided the flesh to produce a man, already purified and filled with that which it is, god's spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Edit: I just had a thought that the child jesus, probably would have been a fast learner, because god is complete order, and would only have had to experience the immaturity of the flesh. And then I remembered this:
Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luk 2:41 And his parents went every year to Jerusalem at the feast of the passover.
Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast;
Luk 2:43 and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not;
Luk 2:44 but supposing him to be in the company, they went a day's journey; and they sought for him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance:
Luk 2:45 and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him.
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions:
Luk 2:47 and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were astonished; and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? Behold, thy father and I sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? Knew ye not that I must be in my Father's house?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth; and he was subject unto them: and his mother kept all [these] sayings in her heart.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
I understand it that way also -a mystery beyond our comprehension. But I also have to agree that it's a long long read. I hate to tell you this, but I read some of these things like a tech manuel, the first time for the sense, the second time to solve the problem at hand, and the third time to begin to understand. Ugh!Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Added comment:Yes, he was as much a child or a man as we are, yet his divinity suffered the flesh for our sake.
JoeT
The two natures of Jesus (His human nature and His divive nature) are not explainable because we have nothing to which to compare Him. But He did have a divine nature while He was in the flesh. He came from God, was His Son: that's His divine nature. He was born of Mary, was her child: that was His human nature. This is even described in the OT:
Isa 9:6-7
For to us a child is born,
To us a son is given,
And the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
There will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
And over his kingdom,
Establishing and upholding it
With justice and righteousness
From that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
Will accomplish this.
NIV
Notice that the Word here does not distinguish this child/son from "Mighty God, Everlasting Father" or the "Counselor" because God is One.
We have a human nature which is being restored to the image of Himself with which God created man... but are told it will not be complete until we put off this fleshly body. Meanwhile, we have been given gifts and authority to do miracles even while in this fleshly body, but not if we have fleshly minds.
Why can't we do the miracles with a fleshly mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by revdrgade
Because both the power and authority to do miracles is not ours. It is only in our connection to God that we can do them. And when we are separated from Him we are powerless:Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
John 15:5-8
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing . 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
NIV
Matt 17:15-20
15 "Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."
17 "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
NIV
Matt 10:1
10:1 He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
NIV
Matt 9:5-8
5 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
NIV
So are you saying we must go through some process before we are given gifts and authority to do miracles?
No, I'm not saying that we need to go through a process. It is Jesus who says that we need to be connected (as vines to the branch) to God before we have any spiritual authority or gifts of the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Can you tell me the way to be connected?
There are some who can. If you read about the Catholic Saints, you will find out about many who did.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Sincerely,
De Maria
Cogs,
Jesus was the Son of GOD. Jesus Christ is actually GOD Incarnate. Consequently, nothing was impossible for HIm, and we cannot even start understanding the mystery of His incarnation. You surely DO NOT believe that Jesus Christ was some kind of magician like David Copperfield with a bag full of tricks, do you? Just think of the biggest myracle of them all: to die in the Cross for you and me, and for all of Mankind, and to ressurrect the third day to prove HE is GOD...
Oh no, I believe his miracles were real. And I believe he was the son of god. It's just that's not the end of the story as far as our walk with god goes. Jesus sent god's spirit, so he must have had a reason for doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.
Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
Jhn 14:17 [even] the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you.
Cogs, I would say this final explanation by Revdrgade is quite clear. But let me ask you, why are you so interested in the possibility of our eventually being able to do miracles?:)Quote:
Originally Posted by revdrgade
I couldn't care less if I ever do anything like a miracle. Even then, I would know it wasn't really me doing them, but god. What I'm interested in is genuinely following god. I believe this is only possible through the holy spirit of god in us. What I wonder about, is the reality of daily interacting with god, doing his will, and knowing what that will is, through him communicating it to us through his spirit. The bible says to seek first the kingdom of god, and I'm not quite sure we're doing this, or know how.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
Now you are on the track that God's wants us all to be! To know His will and do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
I admit that I still struggle as you do with the fulfillment of the desire to please God which is on our hearts. As you read about the followers of God in the OT and the disciples in the NT, they had the same "problem". Some thought they knew, but went off on the wrong track by doing "works of the flesh" (that is, our good deeds which God did not prompt nor empower in us).1* Others got tired of seeking God's will or thought that they could not do or take what God gave them. 2*
1*Num 20:7-11
7 The Lord said to Moses, 8 "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
9 So Moses took the staff from the Lord's presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
NIV
Deut 32:51-52
51 This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. 52 Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel."
NIV
2*Num 14:20-24
20 The Lord replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, 22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times 23 not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.
NIV
Num 14:20-24
20 The Lord replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, 22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times 23 not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.
NIV
Ps 106:11-15
11 The waters covered their adversaries;
not one of them survived.
12 Then they believed his promises
and sang his praise.
13 But they soon forgot what he had done
and did not wait for his counsel.
14 In the desert they gave in to their craving;
in the wasteland they put God to the test.
15 So he gave them what they asked for,
but sent a wasting disease upon them.
NIV
And now, today, we have these great promises of God concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit which He "gives to EACH ONE as He wills". He tells us to pray for the sick, to anoint them with oil "and they will be healed".
But who believes His promises enough to act on them?
He tells us to walk in faith of Him and His promises:
Mal 3:6-12
6 "I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the Lord Almighty.
"But you ask, 'How are we to return?'
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse the whole nation of you because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the Lord Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the Lord Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the Lord Almighty.
NIV
Because living by faith in God and His promises often seem too high for us in this world and the church(which does indeed teach us of our salvation and teaches to know that we have been saved through faith by the blood of Jesus, the Christ) has been deceived by the "de-mythologizing" teachings of false prophets into avoiding teaching on gifts, signs and wonders by the redeemed we have little confidence in being a part of God's power to do might things through us.
My only recourse has been to search out the promises which God has made to us... and walk in faith through prayer and action. I have seen wonderful things. But like the Israelites who kept forgetting, and like even Elijah who after seeing the fire from heaven which he called down from God burn up water, wood, rock and sand... ran in fear of his life... I too soon forget or even run and hide in a cave of my own making.
My advice: search the scripture on these matters; tell God always that you are available to His will; ask for the opportunities to use your gifts and authority as God leads you; and then be ready to be a fool for Christ and do as you are led.
It's these last two which are exciting but not often easy on our flesh.
As an additional assurance that we ought to be doers, look up how often gifts, signs and miracles are associated by Jesus with our living in the "kingdom of God"... and how often He says to someone that they are "near"... or that the kingdom is "close".
All of this on miracles etc. is in the realm of Sanctification/Holiness of living on earth as His disciples. That we ARE His born again children and have the Kingdom is not in dispute over lack of miracles, but believing all His promises we are strengthened when we become more than hearers of the Word and become doers also.
1 John 3:16-4:1
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts , and he knows everything.
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
NIV
John 10:9-10
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
NIV
What I have placed in bold, is what I believe is the closest to a christian's genuine faith in god. This is not a simple belief at which the church stops. And with god's spirit, there is the living word spoken in us, reminding us of jesus' word, and bringing us to the knowledge of truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by revdrgade
I agree. God wants us to mature in order to lights on a hill and salt of the earth. The "flesh" which still clings to us to often keeps us as babes:Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
1 Cor 3:1-3
3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly.
NIV
Over the years, I have seen that each Christian is at a different level of maturity in various areas of their lives. It is up to the Holy Spirit to "convict" them and lead them. It is not up to us to "condemn" them if they are still "in Christ".
Phil 3:15-16
15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
NIV
Absolutely! Eventually, we are ALL to appear in front of the Supreme Judge who will decide whether we did right or wrong during our provisional stay down here and reward or punish us accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by revdrgade
Our own judgement may be entirely wrong! For some of those that apparently are perfectly entitled to achieve the Paradise may not even get close to it, whereas many we do not pay attention to, will travel first class, to their glorious destination.
In this regard the great Dante was quite right in his description of some of the Hell's customers.
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