 |
In reading the bible you can find SO MANY far fetched stories. What amazes me is that some Christians take this stuff as the LITERAL truth. Woman made from man's rib, Noah's ark, Daniel and the lions den, paleeeeezzzeee!
I'm interested in the views of others.
What many miss is recognizing
1) The works of scripture were written in a specific time and place - and meant for a specific group of people, and
2) Scripture contains history, poetry, alliteration, fable, legend, song, sayings, parables, etc.
I affirm that all of Scripture cannot be taken literally... but at the same time I know well that some that I (and my faith) take literally may not be taken literally by others...
And I do believe that most of the bible is literal, and the part of Jesus rising from the dead is completely true. If you can't accept someone being saved from a lion or if you can't believe in a large boat saving a man over a large regional area, you are going to have a real issue with someone rising from the dead.
And of course if a person does not want to believe, why even read it, esp if one wants to make fun of it and the such.
But yes, God saved Noah and God saved Daniel and he did the miricles in the bible
How do you KNOW? You believe but you do not know. There is a difference. Are you saying that two of EVERY species of animal from all over the world was brought onto a boat while the entire rest of the world drowned with the exception of Noah and his family? That would be the death of a lot of innocent people, including children and animals don't you think? What a cruel thing for a supposedly loving god to do. And after the floods, didn't Noah sacrifice an animal or two? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of two (male and female) being rounded up before the destruction of the planet? I try to apply common sense and in doing that, I believe all these "miracles" are metaphors to make a point. The literal translation is absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I never said I do not WANT to believe. And I certainly don't want to make fun of the bible.
I read it because I am on a spiritual journey and am open to hearing out all religions.
I can "buy it" if I think of these stories as metaphors, otherwise they are just insane.
I've studied the nature of evidence. I've studied Church Traditions. I've studied history. I've studied other religions. I've studied the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
As a result I have come to the conclusion that the evidence for the truth of Church Teaching and of Scripture is overwhelming.
And inspection of the Gospels with comparison to historical events, shows that the Gospel writers were accurate as to the historical events occurring around the time they were written. Therefore, since I can trust them in little details, I believe I can trust them in bigger details.
I note also that they all died for what they believed. And since the major idea which they were professing is that Jesus is God, I researched their evidence for this idea. I found that they heard Him proclaim Himself God and they witnessed separately and together, the various miracles which He provided confirming that He is God.
I then noted the various OT prophecies concerning the Messiah and they fit His description.
And I was convinced by this evidence, that Jesus is God.
Do you believe that George Washington was the first president of the United States? If you do, then you believe but you do not know.Quote:
You believe but you do not know.
We all have faith in something. We aren't omniscient. I have faith in the Apostles and the people of God who have carried on the Mission of Christ to teach the world what Jesus taught.
I believe that is true.Quote:
There is a difference. Are you saying that two of EVERY species of animal from all over the world was brought onto a boat while the entire rest of the world drowned with the exception of Noah and his family?
2 Corinthians 5 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Quote:
That would be the death of a lot of innocent people, including children and animals don't you think? What a cruel thing for a supposedly loving god to do.
I look forward to the day that I'm present with God.
Philippians 1 21 For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain.
Yes, that is why he carried extras:Quote:
And after the floods, didn't Noah sacrifice an animal or two? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of two (male and female) being rounded up before the destruction of the planet?
1 And the Lord said to him: Go in thou and all thy house into the ark: for thee I have seen just before me in this generation. 2 Of all clean beasts take seven and seven, the male and the female.
What have you got?Quote:
I try to apply common sense and in doing that, I believe all these "miracles" are metaphors to make a point. The literal translation is absurd.
The Bible should be studied, but mostly it should be prayed:Quote:
I never said I do not WANT to believe. And I certainly don't want to make fun of the bible. I read it because I am on a spiritual journey and am open to hearing out all religions. I can "buy it" if I think of these stories as metaphors, otherwise they are just insane.
Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Scriptures are about telling spiritual truths using everyday language.
People who take the scriptures *literally* miss the point of the spiritual wisdom, and hence, the meaning of their religion.
Very sad, actually.
The story of Adam and EveQuote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Is very very close
To the story of Prometheus giving man fire-
The gods got angry at Prometheus and chained him to a rock
Where his liver was eaten out every day
And regrew every night-
All it is is a slight variation to other ancient religions
Old Testament is history weaved together with storytelling
The New Testament has most of the spiritual wisdom (unless you are jewish)
(and that excludes the Psalms and Jeremiah:
There are greek and sumerian stories of a great floodQuote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
The survivors had different names- now
In one story the husband and wife threw rocks over their heads (backwards)
And every rock that fell became a person
Just because the bible tells the flood from one persons viewpoint does not mean
It should be literal-
What this proves to me is- there was a great flood and there were survivors
The Bible says of itself that God gave certain people the words which they were to write over the centuries. That is a difficult hurdle to get over. It means that the whole book is a "spiritual" writing and not just an historical account handed down by man.
There are many places where poetic license is used by God to give us a better understanding of spiritual matters. But the use of such things should not concern you at this time. As you get to know the truths that God wants you to know and understand, you will be better able to discern what is "literal".
Well, if you cannot believe it on a literal level, then when god speaks to you and opens your mind to a passage of scripture, you can better understand what he was meaning to say. Scripture is not the end of a christians' information about how to live according to god.
It is true that some people take what the Scriptures say quite literally. I have an American friend that insists God created the Universe in 7 days…Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
At Roman Catholic level we are gradually accepting that the Bible – the Old Testament – contains a number of chronicles –not stuff- that are based in legends previous to the writing of the different parts of the O.T.
Taken literally, the Bible says the earth is flat and setting on pillars and cannot move (Ps 93:1, Ps 96:10, 1 Sam 2:8, Job 9:6). It says that great sea monsters are set to guard the edge of the sea (Job 41, Ps 104:26)... "
This is of course ridiculous from our own perspective, but 3.500 to 4000 years ago that was precisely what most people though about our world! It would have therefore been absolutely incomprehensible for the eventual readers of those times to tell them anything else.
Part of the narrative we can find in the O.T. does not belong exclusively to its books. Namely, the Deluge and Noah’s ark.
H.S. Bellamy in Moons, Myths and Men estimates that altogether there are over 500 Flood legends worldwide. Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood.
Perhaps the second most important historical account of a global flood can be found in a Babylonian flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh, written ca. 27th century BCE…
Some of the passages in this Epic practically coincide with the narrative of the Genesis…
What does that mean? That it is more than likely that these floods may refer to some kind of natural phenomenon occurred after the end of the last glaciation, some 12000 years ago.
Accepting – as many believe – the Genesis was dictated to Moses by GOD, can you imagine Moses having to write that the Creation of the Universe was a consequence of a Big Bang that last fractions of a second? To start with Moses would not have had the foggies idea of what a second meant…
So I would say that the O.T. should be read bearing in mind when it was written and what the different authors’s knowledge was in those days. As for the N.T. this is slightly different. Not only because it is closer in time to us but also because it describes the life of Jesus and collects His parables in the different Gospels.
Gospels which are actually a guidebook to follow for us to reach salvation.:D
Yes, god wrote through men over time, and I don't believe the old testament was any different from the new in that respect. God does not change, and the revelation he's given to man will always be filtered through that man's knowledge. That's one of the wonderful things about the gospels, being written through many men. But the overall message remains what god meant to relate. As far as creation, yes, god gave an overall account to moses, and moses related what he was given as best he knew how. I think the different accounts of the same flood only strengthens my belief that the bible is true, as the flood would have been noticed by writers of men and writers of god. To me, reading between the lines of the bible enables me to see beyond the literal account, to the purposes of the mind behind the writing.
Just lol'd at this. Have you read the scriptures you sited? Just saying..Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
The Bible is literal and there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ. That is what I believe and I believe it to be true through FAITH.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Now you say you are on a spiritual journey so you do realize that wherever you settle on this journey it will be because of a FAITH in something, or maybe a FAITH in nothing. Religion, God, etc is not built on believing only what your mind can comprehend or no one would be able to believe in anything. Be open and pray that you will experience the truth for yourself. God bless
The Bible says just what God wanted it to say. It is not to be viewed with "majesterial reason" (by which some demand that it must fit within their reasoning power) but it must be viewed with "ministerial reason" (by which we know what the words are meant to convey)Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Which is to say; we should know a parable by Jesus as distinct from an actual historical account which Jesus is relating about the past or the future.
This sometimes does make interpretation even more difficult... as when Jesus calls Herod, "that fox" when He is not trying to say that Herod is not human. And consider all the problems that Christians have with one another over Jesus claiming that the wine He gives the 12 "is my blood".
(I do believe that in the "Lord's Supper" it IS His blood... but I don't know in what manner it is such... and am willing to leave it in the spiritual realm of God's "hidden things".
Deut 29:29
29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
NIV
Ps 131:1-2
My heart is not proud, O Lord,
My eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
Or things too wonderful for me.
2 But I have stilled and quieted my soul;
Like a weaned child with its mother,
Like a weaned child is my soul within me.
NIV
The Bible makes perfect sense, whether mythologically or literally. All things are possible at all times. Everything is happening now. The illusion of time is a gift we have given to ourselves so that we may experience this world to its fullest.
Yes, you must be out of your mind to experience it. Our limited minds see limits, our souls see infinity which we are a part of. Death is part of the limit we set for ourselves in our minds. Our bodies may expire but how can we stop being? If God created us in his image, we are infinate and outside of time and space.
Studying the Bible is an experience. Arguing about the Bible is an experience. So is being one of the Faithful or being a Secular Humanist. We are here, with our limits to experience and fears to overcome. None of it is either impossible or wrong. But our brains and egos don't get it at all.
Of course. Here I quote what they say as per the USCCB:Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoked
Psalms
Chapter 93
1 to the LORD is king, robed with majesty; the LORD is robed, girded with might. The world will surely stand in place, never to be moved.
2
Your throne stands firm from of old; you are from everlasting, LORD
Say among the nations: The LORD is king. The world will surely stand fast, never to be moved. God rules the peoples with fairness
He raises the needy from the dust;
From the ash heap he lifts the poor,
To seat them with nobles
And make a glorious throne their heritage.
He gives to the vower his vow,
And blesses the sleep of the just.
"For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S,
And he has set the world upon them.
He shakes the earth out of its place, and the pillars beneath it tremble
When he rises up, the mighty are afraid; the waves of the sea fall back.
18
Should the sword reach him, it will not avail; nor will the spear, nor the dart, nor the javelin.
19
He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood.
20
The arrow will not put him to flight; slingstones used against him are but straws.
21
Clubs he esteems as splinters; he laughs at the crash of the spear.
22
His belly is sharp as pottery fragments; he spreads like a threshing sledge upon the mire.
23
He makes the depths boil like a pot; the sea he churns like perfume in a kettle.
24
Behind him he leaves a shining path; you would think the deep had the hoary head of age.
25
Upon the earth there is not his like, intrepid he was made.
26
All, however lofty, fear him; he is king over all proud beasts.
The above description refers to the famous LEVIATHAN, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrwild62
The scriptures were written by many people more likely throughout many centuries.
This naturally implies collecting different oral traditions in the writer’s particular viewpoints.
I do not believe that any Christian Church may seriously try to imbue its faithful devotees today that Noah’s Ark actually enclosed ALL species of living beings existing then; perhaps, not even a few...
Or pretend, along with St. John, that all the stars, etc.
With a few exceptions (and I don’t think St. John was one), they were not very strong in astronomy in those days...
It is not very kind to make fun of what people believed 5 or 6000 years ago. We are not that wise, either. We know more, true. However, we still ignore a tremendous amount of things.
Between February 1692 and May 1693, the Salem witch trials prosecuted people accused of witchcraft in Essex, Suffolk, and Middlesex Counties of colonial Massachusetts. The two courts convicted twenty-nine people of the capital felony of witchcraft. Nineteen of the accused, fourteen women and five men, were hanged. One man who refused to enter a plea was crushed to death under heavy stones in an attempt to force him to do so. At least five more of the accused died in prison.
They all were of course innocent and were killed persuant to wrong interpretations of religion and superstitions as it was also the case with the thousands killed in Europe as a consequence of the Inquisition.
But without going that far back in time, if 200 years ago someone might have come out and publicly declared he had dreamt of a world when flying machines would fly faster than eagles and people should be able to see what was happening on the other side of the world through a small window, he would have been declared possessed and probably condemned at the stake.
Last, but not least, I do not see why anybody should qualify you as a bad person for not believing what practically nobody believes LITERALLY any more. However, not believing literally many parts of the Bible DOES not mean that the Scriptures are a hoax. It simply means they have to be understood bearing in mind the time they were written.
In another 400 years most probably people will consider us strangely backwards and will laugh at some of the things scientists believe now.
On 1553, Michael Servetus, great astronomer, theologian, physician and humanist was burnt at the stake in Geneva as a heretic by order Calvin. Amongst the several reasons that conducted him to the torment was his description of the function of pulmonary circulation of the blood.
Therefore, I guess your human opinion is not very accurate in this case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
I did it again. I clicked on agree when I meant to click on DIS agree. Sorry:o
Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Although I do not agree with his idea the Bible is to be believed to the point and literally I would say that Mountain Man is entitled to his own opinion.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:05 PM. |