Ok... Im 20 years old and have a beautiful baby girl. After I left her father I moved back with my mother at 8 months pregnant. Now I love my daughter, I am also a full time employee and full time college student. Lately the last few weeks I have been really stressed out and after my daughter goes to bed I have been going outpretty late but I still get up and do my daily routine. My mother just came at me the other day and said I was a horrible mother not putting her first and for going out all the time and if I still want to go out I need to temporarily sign my daughter over for a year or so and I can have her back when I want to grow up. Or if I go out frequently anymore she will fight me for custody. I am so scared this will happen. Yes she is a better mother but this is my first. Will you please tell me what I should do and if I am seriously in the wrong. Thank you

The courts will not look at that well when you go to court. They will frown on you refusing visitation to the father. You need to work things out in the meantime of going to court. You need the courts to believe that you are being as easy to work with as possible. In reference to another one of your posts, why not allow visitation with the father and on those weekends that he has her, use that time to go out and blow off stress. You are young and no one can blame you for wanting a regular break from parenting. Be constructive, kill two birds with one stone. Allow visitation with the father, which will make you look good and also use the time for yourself so your mother can't complain that you are a bad mother.

The problem is my mother hates him with a passion and will use it against me if I do let him see her. And I does scare me the courts said that if I let him have her overnight and he left I couldn't get her back until we went to court

I totally disagree with CobraGirl. You were generous in allowing visitation without establishing a court ordered schedule. You perceived a threat to your daughter's safety and acted on it.

You really do need to go to court and formalize custody, visitation and child support.

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Originally Posted by CobraGirl03

The courts will not look at that well when you go to court. They will frown on you refusing visitation to the father. You need to work things out in the meantime of going to court. You need the courts to believe that you are being as easy to work with as possible. In reference to another one of your posts, why not allow visitation with the father and on those weekends that he has her, use that time to go out and blow off stress. You are young and no one can blame you for wanting a regular break from parenting. Be constructive, kill two birds with one stone. Allow visitation with the father, which will make you look good and also use the time for yourself so your mother can't complain that you are a bad mother.

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Totally disagree - at least in NYS.

Is he the acknowledged father (through DNA) or the alleged father? Without Court ordered visitation you have control of the child and you get to set the rules.

If the father is dangerous or volatile you owe it to your child to protect that child in any way possible - including refusing visitation to the father at this time.

If his threatening behavior continues I would get a restraining order against him.

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Originally Posted by A_Ipox

the problem is my mother hates him with a passion and will use it against me if i do let him see her. And i does scare me the courts said that if i let him have her overnight and he left i couldnt get her back until we went to court

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That may be but most fathers who have not been there day in and day out do not know what is really involved in caring for a baby. The other thing is that if he is the same age as you, he probably wants to go out and party etc. Most likely he will not want the full time responsibility of a baby and will bring her back. And if you come across as being easy to deal with and encouraging his visitation, he should not feel compelled into taking her. If I were the other parent and you were threating to not let me see her, I might consider taking her too. Wouldn't you? And what your mother thinks means nothing. The important thing is that your baby has both parents loving and interacting with her. It's harsh to say, but a grandmother is not a requirement in a child's life, her parents are. I know you may not feel like it, but you are an adult now and this child is yours and the decisions are yours- plain and simple. And the most important thing is what's best for your baby, and it's your place to make that happen, not your mother's. My mother is very pushy too and I completely understand what you are going through. Sometimes, you have to shut her voice out and do what you think is best. By the way, the courts will frown on her preventing visitation with the father and may blame you for allowing it to happen since when it comes down to it, it's your choice.
If you feel you are at risk of her taking custody, you need to start keeping a written record of your activities and your conversations. It's a good idea to do this with the father's interactions too. You may never need it but it's priceless if you do need it.

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Originally Posted by CobraGirl03

That may be but most fathers who have not been there day in and day out do not know what is really involved in caring for a baby. The other thing is that if he is the same age as you, he probably wants to go out and party etc. Most likely he will not want the full time responsibility of a baby and will bring her back. And if you come across as being easy to deal with and encouraging his visitation, he should not feel compelled into taking her. If I were the other parent and you were threating to not let me see her, I might consider taking her too. Wouldn't you? And what your mother thinks means nothing. The important thing is that your baby has both parents loving and interacting with her. It's harsh to say, but a grandmother is not a requirement in a childs life, her parents are. I know you may not feel like it, but you are an adult now and this child is yours and the decisions are yours- plain and simple. And the most important thing is what's best for your baby, and it's your place to make that happen, not your mother's. My mother is very pushy too and I completely understand what you are going through. Sometimes, you have to shut her voice out and do what you think is best. By the way, the courts will frown on her preventing visitation with the father and may blame you for allowing it to happen since when it comes down to it, it's your choice.
If you feel you are at risk of her taking custody, you need to start keeping a written record of your activities and your conversations. It's a good idea to do this with the father's interactions too. You may never need it but it's priceless if you do need it.

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Again, I disagree - perhaps morally you are correct. Legally you are not.

Someone is posting on one of the children/family boards right now about this same thing. She tried to be cooperative, she tried to give the father visitation - and he left with the child. It's now been something like four weeks and she is running onto roadblock after roadblock trying to get the child back because there is no custody order on file. Even the FBI is not interested.

Once there is a threat or indication that the child will not be returned do not allow the parent to take the child - Scott said it best. Get a Court action started. If custody to the father is awarded, then it solves your problem with your mother because you will have no choice but to allow the visitation.

It is better to have the child in your care and wonder what would have happened if the father had visitation than to hand the child over and know what could/would happen.

Without an Order you both have equal rights - and that will be a problem if the child goes missing.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

I totally disagree with CobraGirl. You were generous in allowing visitation without establishing a court ordered schedule. You perceived a threat to your daughter's safety and acted on it.

You really do need to go to court and formalize custody, visitation and child support.

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I agree to a point with you. But for one thing, the danger has to be proven to the court in order to justify the action. In Virginia (which has odd laws), my understanding is that the court is the only one that can make that judgement call.

In any case, my recommendation was based on the fact that the concern was not for safety of the child but for other reasons, such as him taking the baby from her. I may have read that wrong. Maybe the mom can specify the concern a little clearer. If there is a safety concern, then she should involve the legal system asap. If for no other reason but to record the incident. However, I have witnessed many mom vs dad disputes and in most cases, the courts deem the concerns of the feuding parties as being petty and frowns on the parent making the complaints. Everyone thinks they are in the right in these cases and the judge just don't seem to be interested in figuring out the mess when it finally gets to court. That is the reason I said that she should be agreeable but at the same time document everything. Many moms use the baby as leverage against the father and that comes across as really bad in court. With being as agreeable as possible, it will appear that the main concern is the baby, no strings attached. Hopefully, this is the reality, although many times it's not.

First, please note the OP's two threads have been merged.

In the OP of the second thread the OP stated; "But when she hit about 2.5 months he started to go a little crazy, calling me harrassing me and. and called the cops on me trying to get me in trouble with my daughter. Finally he got really bad one night at a visit so i ran out and left with my daughter and told him that he can still see her after we get visitation set up because i dont trust him about anything. "

This is what I based her fear for the safety of the child on. I agree that the danger needs to be proven in court. But the court will not hold it against the mother if she perceives a danger as you implied.

Also, we don't know the father's legal standing at this point. Whether he's on the because or acknowledged as the legal father.

"Someone is posting on one of the children/family boards right now about this exact same thing. She tried to be cooperative, she tried to give the father visitation - and he left with the child. It's now been something like four weeks and she is running onto roadblock after roadblock trying to get the child back because there is no custody order on file. Even the FBI is not interested."

I can understand the concern... the mother here will have to really look at the situation and decide if this is a founded concern. This guy is probably 20 years old too and probably was not ready to be a father. Has she even filed for a court date yet? If not, then I have to wonder how concerned she really is about him taking the baby. She needs to get a court date asap, not only for custody but also for child support. If she gets child support, maybe she can use the extra monthly income to move out of her mothers, eliminating both issues together. The above mention situation does happen, but how often? How many 20 year olds are prepared to up-root to entirely different town and be a full time dad? Maybe you are right but I have to believe that the right thing is the right thing. My mother was a piece of garbage and my mother and father absolutely hated each other. But my dad was always the bigger person and never was negative and always encouraged us to go visit her. Even after he found out that she took us to bars and had us sleep over at strange men's homes when she had us, he still knew that we needed a relationship with her. And he never wanted to stand in the way of that. And there was a time that she did kidnap us from school and she had custody (she won custody and then did not want us). But she did not leave town with us and we were home within four days. Few people are willing to leave their lives in order to hurt their ex.

Legally speaking, I was watching something the other day that said in 25 states there is a regristry for fathers. By law, if they do not regrister as the father before the baby is born, they have no legal rights to the baby. I think it's an awful law but it's designed to prevent this type of situation. This girl may check if it applies in her state. It is an obscure law but it is in 25 states currently!

"But if she is the better, more fit parent (financially, emotionally, physically available), maybe you should both see an Attorney, draw up papers acceptable to both of you, file them with the Court, grant your mother temporary guardianship - again, along lines you both can live with now and in the future."
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Again, I strongly discourage this. You are a new, young mother. Of course your mother is going to know things you do not know. When she was your age, how much better of a mother was she? Being a parent is a learn as you go process. If she is a better mother, then ask her advice and learn from it. DO NOT sign custody over to her if you love and want your baby! According to your description of her, she is a little pushy and I get the impression that you are never good enough for her standards. Is that opinion going to be different in a year or two? If she decides, she can fight you for custody and if she has established a stable home for your daughter, the courts will be hard pressed to move her. My brother did the same thing. He was not ready to give up his partying and gave our mother joint custody and the little girl lived with her for about a 1 1/2 years before he went to get full custody back. He hired a lawyer and still lost. Not only that, but he was hit with child support that he had to pay to her too. It's been ten years and she still has the little girl! If your mother had your baby's and your best interest in mind, she would help teach you how to be a better mother, not try to take that right from you. I would be seriously concerned about her motives...

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Originally Posted by CobraGirl03

"Someone is posting on one of the children/family boards right now about this exact same thing. She tried to be cooperative, she tried to give the father visitation - and he left with the child. It's now been something like four weeks and she is running onto roadblock after roadblock trying to get the child back because there is no custody order on file. Even the FBI is not interested."

I can understand the concern... the mother here will have to really look at the situation and decide if this is a founded concern. This guy is probably 20 years old too and probably was not ready to be a father. Has she even filed for a court date yet? If not, then I have to wonder how concerned she really is about him taking the baby. She needs to get a court date asap, not only for custody but also for child support. If she gets child support, maybe she can use the extra monthly income to move out of her mothers, eliminating both issues together. The above mention situation does happen, but how often? How many 20 year olds are prepared to up-root to entirely different town and be a full time dad? Maybe you are right but I have to believe that the right thing is the right thing. My mother was a piece of garbage and my mother and father absolutely hated each other. But my dad was always the bigger person and never was negative and always encouraged us to go visit her. Even after he found out that she took us to bars and had us sleep over at strange men's homes when she had us, he still knew that we needed a relationship with her. And he never wanted to stand in the way of that. And there was a time that she did kidnap us from school and she had custody (she won custody and then did not want us). But she did not leave town with us and we were home within four days. Few people are willing to leave their lives in order to hurt their ex.

Legally speaking, I was watching something the other day that said in 25 states there is a regristry for fathers. By law, if they do not regrister as the father before the baby is born, they have no legal rights to the baby. I think it's an awful law but it's designed to prevent this type of situation. This girl may check if it applies in her state. It is an obscure law but it is in 25 states currently!!

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I have never seen anything about a presumptive father registry - it varies greatly from State to State. If you have a source, please post it, including the 25 States. In ALL States a father who is not the acknowledged father has no rights - in some States the acknowledgement can be as simple as a statement of the mother in putting the father's name on the birth certificate; in other States it takes formal testing. At the moment I don't have the inclination to pull the various laws from the various States.

I understand where you are coming from based on your experience - however, legally in this matter the father has no rights. She has no obligation to get an order for custody/visitation/support and your conclusion that her failure to do so means she is somehow not concerned for her child's welfare is not valid. If you read the various threads you will see that women shy away from these Orders because without such an Order they are totally in control of the child and don't want to chance the father getting visitation.

How many people grab the child and take off? I don't know. I only know the people who post on this board, desperate for assistance, after the father takes off. I also know the number of parents - both mothers and fathers - I've had a part in tracking down for one side or the other. I don't know what your experience is and perhaps it's different from mine.

You are confusing moral issues and legal issues.

"I have never seen anything about a presumptive father registry - it varies greatly from State to State. If you have a source, please post it, including the 25 States. In ALL States a father who is not the acknowledged father has no rights - in some States the acknowledgement can be as simple as a statement of the mother in putting the father's name on the birth certificate; in other States it takes formal testing. At the moment I don't have the inclination to pull the various laws from the various States"

It's called the Putative Father's Registry.

And I did not say that she was not concerned about her baby's welfare if she does not file for custody. My point is that sometimes true concern for safety is sometimes confused with the personal interests of the parents. And this girl claims that she has a concern that he will take the baby and she is using this as a reason to deny visitation. If this is a valid concern, then she needs to go to court to get an order protecting her rights. If it's just an excuse she is using to hurt the father and use the baby as leverage, then that's not right, legal or not. Yes, I am mixing moral issues with law. That's because I am a product of this same type of situation and I feel morals and what is best for the baby is much more important than what is legal. At the same time, I am advising this girl to use the legal system to do the right thing while protecting herself and her rights.
And it seems as though you are dismissing the father's rights to the baby all together. You need to consider that there are two sides to everything, and then there's the truth. This girl is seeing things from her viewpoint and she sees herself as in the right. But who's to say if the father were on here posting, that we would not be defending him just as hard once we heard his side of things. Now if there is a safety concern, then fine. But this girl has not used the word "abuse" anywhere that I have read. But if this is just a matter of difference in opinion, then who are we, or her for that matter, to deny visitation to this father. Just because she gave birth to this child does not mean she is any better parent than he would be given the chance. And these mothers who do not seek orders in court are obviously dealing with fathers that do not want the children or else the fathers would have already petitioned the courts. This guy is obviously interested in visiting the child or she would not be concerned about him taking her away. It sounds as though they both have the ability to be loving, good parents. They just need to get something in writing to determine visitation etc so they both can stop worrying and just get down to being good parents. That's what is all about!

Here is a web address that talks about putative father registry:

The Rights of Presumed (Putative) Fathers

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Originally Posted by CobraGirl03

Here is a web address that talks about putative father registry:

The Rights of Presumed (Putative) Fathers

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I checked through the link and it generally supports what Judy said. To claim rights a father has to prove a link, either biological or documentary, with the child. Until such proof exists a father has no legal rights to the child. The mother is under no legal obligation to provide visitation or anything else.

As for hearing only one side, I totally agree. But since that's all we have, we have to give our advice based on the information we are givien. We can question that info, but we should not give advice on the supposition that there may be a different side to the story.

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Originally Posted by CobraGirl03

Here is a web address that talks about putative father registry:

The Rights of Presumed (Putative) Fathers

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I read it as a means for notification in the event of adoption or termination of rights - I have read it over (and perhaps I'll read it again) but I see nothing about it granting any legal standing.

But I'll read it again -

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

I checked through the link and it generally supports what Judy said. To claim rights a father has to prove a link, either biological or documentary, with the child. Until such proof exists a father has no legal rights to the child. The mother is under no legal obligation to provide visitation or anything else.

As for hearing only one side, I totally agree. But since that's all we have, we have to give our advice based on the information we are givien. We can question that info, but we should not give advice on the supposition that there may be a different side to the story.

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Scott,
I agree and it sounds as though this girl has her baby in mind, otherwise she would not be asking for advice on this website. I guess I just got defensive at the idea of taking a father's rights away. I personally believe it should be the absolute last resort in these situations, whether visitation has been granted or not. Only because my mother won custody of us when we were little and the courts got it wrong. My brother and I would not have known love if my father had been kept from us. She didn't have any interest in being a parent, only in doing what she could to hurt him. I feel it is a little quick to advise this girl to keep this baby from her father. I understand your reasoning until visitation is set up, but I don't understand telling a woman to not go to court in an effort to prevent the father visitation. If she has concerns, then she needs to address them in court, not hide from them. The little girl is going to resent her mother when she is older if the mother prevents a relationship between her and her father.
And Judy is correct, I don't much care for the law in custody and visitation matters because rarely does it truly address what is right for the child. In going through the process myself and also being a member of a family that cared for foster children, I know how the courts view things. They view children as pieces of property in many cases and the children suffer for it. That's why I feel this girl needs to try to work things out with the father and go to court now to set something up before the situation comes to a head, whether it's with her mother or the baby's father. I am not a lawyer but I know what I think is right and that's what I live by and that's what motivated me to answer this girl in the manor I did. It's fine that we disagree, that's the spice of life and it gives this girl different viewpoints to consider other than her own.
In regard to the law, I read into it that if a father has no say over adopting a child out or terminating rights, then what other rights could he have over the child. It's a very scary law and I fear for men that it is used against. And I don't know if this father has been legally acknowledged by this girl, she hasn't answered that question yet. So I am not sure that it would apply to protect her if he took the baby. I just threw it out there as an FYI.

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Originally Posted by CobraGirl03

I guess I just got defensive at the idea of taking a father's rights away. I personally believe it should be the absolute last resort in these situations, whether visitation has been granted or not.

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Actually I don't think the OP talked about taking there father's rights away, but more about formalizing them in court. I certainly agree with you that terminating rights is a last resort and I berleive the difficulty in obtaining a TPR shows the courts and laws agree with that.

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Originally Posted by CobraGirl03

And Judy is correct, I don't much care for the law in custody and visitation matters because rarely does it truley address what is right for the child.

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You may have had bad experiences, but from what I've seen the courts get it right more often than not. Of course a lot of the problem is that these things tend to be he said/she said things and a lot of fibbing goes on.

[QUOTE=ScottGem][quote=CobraGirl03]I guess I just got defensive at the idea of taking a father's rights away. I personally believe it should be the absolute last resort in these situations, whether visitation has been granted or not. [quote]

Actually I don't think the OP talked about taking there father's rights away, but more about formalizing them in court. I certainly agree with you that terminating rights is a last resort and I berleive the difficulty in obtaining a TPR shows the courts and laws agree with that.

[quote=CobraGirl03]And Judy is correct, I don't much care for the law in custody and visitation matters because rarely does it truly address what is right for the child.

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You may have had bad experiences, but from what I've seen the courts get it right more often than not. Of course a lot of the problem is that these things tend to be he said/she said things and a lot of fibbing goes on.

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Not fibbing, flat out lies, plus some fake tears and some oscar winning acting! I think it's the luck of the draw as to what judge with which you get stuck.
And no, the girl never mentioned taking the rights away. It was something that came up in the post later. It seemed as though that was the direction that some were advising and that's what got me worked up. Actually, I think it was advised that she not take this guy to court so she could retain all of the power... but if she did that, then she could never trust the father to take the baby for visitation and it would restrict the relationship he would be able to have with his daughter. That's what I disagreed with.

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Originally Posted by CobraGirl03

I think it was advised that she not take this guy to court so she could retain all of the power...but if she did that, then she could never trust the father to take the baby for visitation and it would restrict the relationship he would be able to have with his daughter. That's what I disagreed with.

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It would give her all the power UNTIL the father went to court on his own.