Ask Me Help Desk - Can I still use my recipe after a friend won a contest with it?

I'm not sure if I am posting in the right category but there are a lot of helpful people here who will probably tell me if I'm not so here goes: I shared a favorite, original recipe of mine with a friend, (former coworker and neighbor.) She never aswked me for the recipe, we were just talking and I ended up giving it to her. About a month later I'm reading our local paper and see that my recipe has won one of those little cooking contests and my friend is listed as the winner! She never mentioned it to me I just found out this way. Now I'm not upset, maybe she really forgot where that great recipe came from and thought she thought of it herself, and anyway she really didn't benefit all that much from winning. But usually you have to sign a release, you know, giving the sponsor rights to your recipe. So am I out of luck on my own recipe she sort of plagiarized from me? Can I use it myself without worry or not? I think they should have to prove it is not my property?:confused: :(

Since it was a little contest I don't see why you shouldn't be able to use it. It wasn't like it was a Betty Crocker contest and unless you had some really special secret family ingredient What if you hadn't seen she used it in a contest? I would think that with the billions of people there are others are bound to have the same recipe. I would use it and if something is said then they have to prove that it wasn't your recipe passed down in your family.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildandblue

I'm not sure if I am posting in the right catagory but there are a lot of helpful people here who will probably tell me if I'm not so here goes: I shared a favorite, original recipe of mine with a friend, (former coworker and neighbor.) She never aswked me for the recipe, we were just talking and I ended up giving it to her. About a month later I'm reading our local paper and see that my recipe has won one of those little cooking contests and my friend is listed as the winner! She never mentioned it to me I just found out this way. Now I'm not upset, maybe she really forgot where that great recipe came from and thought she thought of it herself, and anyway she really didn't benefit all that much from winning. But usually you have to sign a release, you know, giving the sponsor rights to your recipe. So am I out of luck on my own recipe she sort of plagiarized from me? Can I use it myself without worry or not? I think they should have to prove it is not my property?:confused: :(

There are two different topics here - what is ethical (should you ask someone for a recipe and then claim it for your own?) - and legal (can you ask someone for a recipe and then claim it for your own?).

A recipe is merely a formula or list of ingredients. Various Courts (usually following someone winning a very large cooking contest) have found that ANY change in a recipe makes it a new recipe. For example - you use three tablespoons of sugar in your sauce; I use two; It’s a new recipe. You use grated lemon peel and lemon juice; I use just the juice; It’s a new recipe.

I see no legal course of action here. Ethically - well, that’s another issue.

Of course you can still use your recipe as can anyone else who has it - you just cannot enter it into any contests as your own unless you make changes in it because it would appear she has used it in a contest and it is listed as "hers." Large cooking contests require significant differences before they will accept a recipe.

You could certainly notify the people who held the contest that it's your recipe but, as above, if she made any changes it's not your recipe and I have no idea how you would prove it's yours and not hers - not do I know if it would be worthwhile to pursue it.

Lots of people refuse to share recipes for this same reason.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Of course you can still use your recipe as can anyone else who has it - you just cannot enter it into any contests as your own unless you make changes in it because it would appear she has used it in a contest and it is listed as "hers." Large cooking contests require significant differences before they will accept a recipe.

Lots of people refuse to share recipes for this exact same reason.

But what if somebody enters a Betty Crocker contest and uses a recipe that someone used in a local contest and it won but the one that enters the B.C. one has no idea of the other recipe?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

But what if somebody enters a Betty Crocker contest and uses a recipe that someone used in a local contest and it won but the one that enters the B.C. one has no idea of the other recipe?

The cooking contests claim they have a very large database which someone screens recipes by primary ingredient, secondary ingredient, all the way down the line, can pick up duplicate or copied recipes.

I think you can use a local recipe in a national contest - you just can't use someone else's recipe in another contest.

That's why the whole "change an ingredient" rule of thumb exists.

All I can say is that since I make my own recipes up in my head as I go along
IF I ever enter a recipe contest I hope somebody else hasn't won with the same recipe as what I made up in my head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

All I can say is that since I make my own recipes up in my head as I go along
IF I ever enter a recipe contest I hope somebody else hasn't won with the same recipe as what I made up in my head.

No one has EVER asked me for a recipe - my cooking is a success if I don't set the house on fire.

I will not be entering any contests in the near future. :D

Well she never came out and asked me for the recipe, she liked the dish at our party and I ended up giving the recipe to her. I'm the sort who keeps the recipe in my head and doesn't actually measure out the ingredients when I make things. We ended up sitting at the picnic table and her writing down the recipe in her handwriting while I told her what it was. But there's no doubt in my mind the win was my recipe because it wasn't just a list of ingredients, it was the whole dish, how I make it, the way I present it etc. At our ages short term memory is the first to go which is why I don't know if she did this intentionally. I myself am not a contest joiner but how about if I wanted to publish this dish somewhere like in our church cookbook that we sell as a fundraiser? Is that going to be a problem is what I wonder.
I remembered something similar happened to me years ago when I was working--we were having trouble with a piece of machinery and under my breath I said to another guy, "why doesn't somebody-----" only to find out that this guy put the idea into our company suggestion box and won a really big cash prize for it! But he bought steak dinners with all the trimmings for our whole department when he did. And he had the good grace to look a little embarrassed when he looked me in the eye after that. We remained good friends!

I just wonder what were to happen if you never did see the article and you did use the recipe in a bigger contest. If you could prove it was your recipe from years ago what would they have to prove or be able to prove if you had never seen the article.

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Well she never came out and asked me for the recipe, she liked the dish at our party and I ended up giving the recipe to her. I'm the sort who keeps the recipe in my head and doesn't actually measure out the ingredients when I make things. We ended up sitting at the picnic table and her writing down the recipe in her handwriting while I told her what it was. But there's no doubt in my mind the win was my recipe because it wasn't just a list of ingredients, it was the whole dish, how I make it, the way I present it etc. At our ages short term memory is the first to go which is why I don't know if she did this intentionally. I myself am not a contest joiner but how about if I wanted to publish this dish somewhere like in our church cookbook that we sell as a fundraiser? Is that going to be a problem is what I wonder.
I remembered something similar happened to me years ago when I was working--we were having trouble with a piece of machinery and under my breath I said to another guy, "why doesn't somebody-----" only to find out that this guy put the idea into our company suggestion box and won a really big cash prize for it! But he bought steak dinners with all the trimmings for our whole department when he did. And he had the good grace to look a little embarassed when he looked me in the eye after that. We remained good friends!

Legally a recipe is a list of ingredients UNLESS you have invented a new cooking technique. I was addressing the legal aspect, citing previous cases and issues.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear - publish it somewhere and change an ingredient and it's a new recipe.

I don't believe that this rises to the level of a lawsuit but if it does - the recipe is in her handwriting, not yours (not that she wouldn't have thrown yours away if her intention was to defraud someone).

Yeah the best solution is just make some minor changes in the recipe like add a 1/4 of a teaspoon tartar sauce, or flour, or baking soda, or sauce or syrup of some sort or something

Thank you all for your time and advice.

Just wanted to add here, since I'm not the contest entering sort of person, if she had not done this I never would have had any idea my recipe was good enough to win, so I'm taking it as a compliment.
( And if I do decide to use it in our church fundraiser, the company will just have to go after those orphans and homeless we're raising money for and get it back from them)

Actually something similar happened to me in a muffin baking contest. I won once gave my recipe away to friends and family and a friend of my entered a contest with the same recipe. But I called the company that claimed my recipe and all my friend needed to do was change in ever so slightly. So he added 1/8tsp. Of salt which was not noticeable whatsoever. So it sounds bad you have to do this to your own recipe but change it so slightly that it's not different tasting so you don't get in trouble and for good measures change the name of it.

Um, why would *you* have to change it at all? I'm a little confused about some of the things that have been posted. Wouldn't you in fact have proof if you served your dish in a precise way (like the same way, especially if someone else was in the kitchen while you were preparing it) *before* this "friend" went and stole your recipe?

Also, was anyone else around at any point that day and aware of the fact that you shared this recipe with her?

Of course she stole it, plain and simple. Maybe she "forgot" she was stealing it, but that's no excuse. :P

If I were you, I would use the recipe freely. If there are any issues down the road, you can handle them then. You're the one in the right anyway. Fine, you didn't copyright it. Do most home cooks?

I also don't get this idea about her having written a copy of the recipe and that being "proof" that it would be hers. Couldn't she simply have copied an existing recipe in her own handwriting (as was the case)? What's proof about that? Did she go on to copyright it before submitting it in the contest? I'll bet she didn't.

Fair is fair. I'm rooting for you.

Well thanks for posting, but like I said, I really wouldn't have had a clue my recipie was "good" if she hadn't plagiarized it, if that is the right word. As far as proof, I grew up in Maryland and have been cooking crabs and other seafood since childhood and she did not, so how would she suddenly invent an advanced crabcake recipie somehow? But the experts are basically saying the first published gets the credit. It isn't moral, but it is legal which can be two different things.

wildandblue, you're just as sweet as sugar pie. Even between themselves, lawyers don't always agree--nor do judges. (sorry judy, it's nothing personal.) so if you were to take your question to 100 lawyers, I'm sure you would find more than one who would agree with your side, not the thief's.

The bottom line is going to come down to two things. First, it's how much proof you could pull up to show beyond a reasonable doubt that this is in fact your original recipe. Have you cooked it for other people before she got it into her grubby little hands? :) were there others who were aware of the fact that she ate that dish at your house and then got the recipe from you (or were in attendance that day/evening and saw you dictating that exact recipe or knew about it in another indisputable way)? Was anyone with you in the kitchen while you were making it, either as a helper or as an attentive observer?

If no one else had ever had your dish (before she got it), if no one knew you were friends and could share recipes, if no one else was there that day/evening, if no one knows she was given the recipe, or if no one had any experience with your recipe whatsoever (before she got it), well, then, yes, you would just be screwed.

The second part of the story relates to how far you really want to take this recipe. If you want to submit it in your church's fund raising cookbook, just do it. If I were you, I would consider calling it "wildandblue's stolen recipe," "wab's famous & stolen recipe for maryland crabcakes," "wab's street litigation crabcakes," "wab's 'should'a copyrited the recipe' crabcakes," "wab's original recipe crabcakes"... you get the idea. ;)

Now, let's say you wanted to submit this recipe into a big contest. It is *your* original recipe. Nohelp4you brought up a good point; that is, if you had never come across the article in the paper, you might never have known that your recipe had been used elsewhere. I wouldn't think that your friend the thief would take *you* into court, but you never know... so if you want to use this exact recipe in a contest one day, you will have to be prepared with the idea that it might wind up taking a bad turn into the legal world. That being so, you should either handle the legal aspects before submitting it (to prove that it is your's and not hers), or you should be prepared with indisputable proof that would protect your pockets down the road.

Because the potential for all of that could mean a big mess for you, you just have to determine if it would be worth your time, energy and (in all likelihood) finances. Unless there is a lot of money or prestige to be gained from reclaiming it, it probably would not be worth any of that. It sounds like you're sweet enough that you're happy to take it as a compliment and just move on. That's impressive.

You're obviously a good enough cook that you probably have all kinds of delicious (and original) recipes in your repertoire. I can appreciate the idea that it was only after you saw that your friend won first place with your recipe that you caught on to how good it might actually be. You might want to consider using one of your other great recipes in a contest down the road. If you've got enough great ones (and the inclination), you might even consider making a cookbook of your own. It doesn't have to be for sale--it could be used to raise funds for charity, or just to keep within your family. Just write them down! :)

I'm also an avid home cook, and I love my recipes. I'm not the kind of person who hides secret ingredients or insists that the recipe has to die in my hands. I give my recipes to any friend I think really appreciates them.

I was thinking about your friend, and I just wanted to throw out a couple of ideas. Okay, she shouldn't have used your recipe, especially without asking you about it first. You might be right in saying that she forgot it came from you, but it sounds like she certainly seemed to remember your presentation of it down to the last detail... :P I wonder if she's the super competitive type who enters a contest to win it, or if she's much more laid back. If she entered it just for fun, meaning that she never actually expected to win, I think I would feel a little better about the whole thing. However, considering she did win, she should have contacted you about it. I'm sure she's embarrassed (if she remembers who gave it to her), but you really did deserve a little note, half of the prize or, at the very least, a nod to let you know.

Okay, that's enough from me. Like I said, you're just a dear. And if you really want to share that recipe... well, I happen to love a good crab cake. :)

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Originally Posted by linnealand

wildandblue, you're just as sweet as sugar pie. even between themselves, lawyers don't always agree--nor do judges. (sorry judy, it's nothing personal.) so if you were to take your question to 100 lawyers, i'm sure you would find more than one who would agree with your side, not the thief's.)

I think the legal and ethical lines are getting blurred here - there is PLENTY of case law on the subject (just about every time there's a national cooking/baking contest, in fact) and both Nohelp and I posted the law.

As I said - morally, ethically - well, that's another story.

But legally change an ingredient and it's a new recipe. There's a relatively new case in which the recipe is identical with chopped onion replaced with onion salt. So far it's ruled as new recipe! I'll see if I can find the law again. Nohelp and I had it when this first was posted.

EDIT: I know that Nohelp went back to school but has anyone heard from her? Kind of lonely on the legal threads without her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I think the legal and ethical lines are getting blurred here - there is PLENTY of case law on the subject (just about every time there's a national cooking/baking contest, in fact) and both Nohelp and I posted the law.

As I said - morally, ethically - well, that's another story.

But legally change an ingredient and it's a new recipe. There's a relatively new case in which the recipe is identical with chopped onion replaced with onion salt. So far it's ruled as new recipe! I'll see if I can find the law again. Nohelp and I had it when this first was posted.

EDIT: I know that Nohelp went back to school but has anyone heard from her? Kind of lonely on the legal threads without her.

I'm not interested in doing a back and forth forever on this, but what you're talking about is different from what I'm talking about. I'm not just talking about ethical terms, and lawyers aren't the only ones who are familiar with the law.

From what I've been reading, the question has not been related to a recipe that has been changed in any way. Where does it say that the friend changed any part of the original recipe? From what wildandblue described, it was the *same exact thing.* granted, it's a small technicality, but it's an important one, right? Had it been modified (and thusly explained as such), I would have been in total agreement from the beginning.

I own a furniture, lighting and décor design company, and we deal with the same issues all the time. When my partner and I make a new design and then find a similar version of that design being sold by our competition not long after ours goes on the market, we can't do anything about it (nor do we actually care to) because our competitors need only tweak the tiniest thing for it to be classified as brand new in legal terms. This is not news to me.

So, as has been stated, IF WAB doesn't want to go through the potential legal hassles of defending the original recipe as his own, then, yes, *he* can change the recipe, even if it's in a way that's so slight that it doesn't change the results in any noticeable way.

Sure, his friend could try to claim that she changed something in the recipe, even if it was something small, except that the recipe was already published exactly as she used it, so there would be no going back to cover up her tracks.

If he had indisputable proof that it was *exactly* his recipe, and if he cared enough, then he could make a case out of it, couldn't he? WAB might not have enough proof, but the law still stands.

For example, let's say I created an original recipe for fried chicken. One evening I have guests over for dinner, and one of those guests likes the chicken so much that I decide to share my recipe with him. A few years later, I find out that he has used my *exact* same recipe to start the Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise. If I had indisputable proof that the recipe was mine, and if I did not sign off my rights for that recipe to him, wouldn't I be able to file a law suit for some form of financial restitution? I might not get it, but at the very least, they would need to tweak *their* recipe, if only by a pinch. The only real difference is in the scale of the prize.

Thank goodness a recipe made with fresh onion is considered legally different from a recipe made with onion salt. Onion salt is disgusting.

This is fun. Just barely.

(by the way, judy, just out of curiosity, I've always wanted to know what kind of law you practice.)

As the thread progressed the change in the ingredients question came up - I just re-read and you're right. There is no indication that the recipe is not the original recipe, as handed over. Then the proof is how the other person got it, if it's ever been published and on and on and on. I don't know about indisputable proof but perhaps it exists. You can basically make a case out of anything if you have the time and the money and the ear of an Attorney.

I don't practice law - I'm a liability investigator (an independent working for a number of law firms as well as outsource for some insurance carriers) and own a process service company, also have done and occasionally still do legal research, document preparation and proofreading for a large liability firm.

I enjoy research of any sort and have a pretty good eye for details - that's why when someone posts "here" that they are married and then posts "there" that they are not, I catch it. Sometimes.