At the request of another member who'd like to learn about this, here are some Catholic teachings on prayers to saints.

Veneration / Honor of the Saints from Scripturecatholic.com
Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.

Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.

Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her "Hail, full of grace." The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God's children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.

1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.

Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.

James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.

1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.

Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.

Lev. 19:32- we should also honor "the face of an old man." When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.
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The earliest Christian believers and ecclesiastical writers certainly believed in the Catholic doctrine of the communion and intercession of the Saints and Angels in heaven:

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels...as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep." ORIGEN On Prayer 11 AD 233

"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]." PECTORIUS Epitaph AD 250

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy." ST. CYPRIAN Letters 56(60):5 AD 252

"Mother of God, listen to my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger." Rylands Papyrus 3 AD 350

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard...But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" ST. JEROME Against Vigilantius 6 AD 406

So, based upon Scripture and the Tradition of our fathers in the early church, we believe that prayers to the saints and the Mother of God are not in vain.

Are honor and prayer the same thing?
I know Mary is blessed and honored but why pray through her?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Are honor and prayer the same thing?

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No

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I know Mary is blessed and honored but why pray through her?

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I guess you might just want to post your reasons you believe we should NOT pray to her... because, as I noted in the above post: based upon Scripture and the Tradition of our fathers in the early church, we believe that prayers to the saints and the Mother of God are not in vain.

... and it has been this way since early Christianity:

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed." Sub Tuum Praesidium, From Rylands Papyrus, Egypt (3rd century).

"Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected.... Nor would I hesitate to admit you to the altars of God, whose souls I would without hesitation call altars, on which Christ is daily offered for the redemption of the body. For if the virgin's body be a temple of God, what is her soul, which, the ashes, as it were, of the body being shaken off, once more uncovered by the hand of the Eternal Priest, exhales the vapor of the divine fire. Blessed virgins, who emit a fragrance through divine grace as gardens do through flowers, temples through religion, altars through the priest." Ambrose, On Virginity II:6,18 (A.D. 378).

"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground." Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11 (A.D. 379).

Just For starts

“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” Jeremiah 33:3

“And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.” Psalm 50:15

When trouble comes, call upon God, (not Mary):
“Give ear, O Lord, unto my prayer... In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.” Psalm 86:6, 7

“He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.” Psalm 91:15

Literally hundreds of Scriptures teach us to flee to God when trouble comes our way. Not a single verse encourages us to pray to Mary:
“But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.” Psalm 37:39

“O LORD, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble.” Isaiah 33:2

“Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.” Psalm 41:1

Should you cast your burdens on Mary?
“Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.” Psalm 55:22

King David prayed all through the day... to God:
“Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.” Psalm 55:17

The psalmist proclaimed:
“The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.” Psalm 145:18

In the New Testament we read:
“Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.” Philippians 4:6

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.

God says go to him directly. The Bible says there is ONE intercessor Jesus.

Why was Mary never mentioned in these verses if we are to go through her for prayer? But rather God and Jesus were the only ones mentioned.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Literally hundreds of Scriptures teach us to flee to God when trouble comes our way. Not a single verse encourages us to pray to Mary:

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Okey dokey.

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The Bible says there is ONE intercessor Jesus.

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Amen... we agree on that.

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Why was Mary never mentioned in these verses if we are to go through her for prayer? But rather God and Jesus were the only ones mentioned.

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This would certainly be relevant if all revealed truth needed to be explicity written in the Bible... but I don't believe that is the truth.

You see, unlike we Catholics who believe in a Faith based on Sacred Tradition and the development of doctrine founded upon that Tradition (John 14:26 & 16:13), non-Catholic Christians (NCC) hold that all we have are the Scriptures -- static written records which comprise the completely-developed Faith as Christ intended it to be.

I, as a Catholic believe in the development of doctrine -- that, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Church can and does come to deeper appreciations of facets in the Deposit of Faith left to us by the Apostles. Jesus promised as much in John 16:13. I assume that you, however, believe that the Faith is static -- frozen solidly in the pages of a recorded document.. . And that this recorded document is all we have... Well, if that's the case, then it necessarily follows that you MUST be able to show that your interpretation of this document is consistent and repeatable for anyone (in whatever age) who reads the Biblical record... and I've yet to find a NCC that can do this... and so I believe that there is no objective standard for your interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures.

Without this, how can you say that your interpretation is any better than mine??

You can't.

Not with objective certainty.

So away from the Catholic/E. Orthodox faith I just see a religion based on opinion -- something I refer to as "pious guessing"... or simply Biblical relativism... and that is CERTAINLY nothing that I could support as being the truth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

At the request of another member who'd like to learn about this, here are some Catholic teachings on prayers to saints.

Veneration / Honor of the Saints from Scripturecatholic.com
Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.

Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.

Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her "Hail, full of grace." The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.

Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God's children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!

Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.

1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.

Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.

Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.

James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.

1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.

Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.

Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.

Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.

Lev. 19:32- we should also honor "the face of an old man." When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.

1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.

2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.
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[/B]

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Without going to the full exist on each of these scriptures refer by ScottRC, I will take one that with little effect can show what is being taught in scripture. It is not what Scott RC has offered, as any proven source to praying to saints.


Example Taken:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops. [/B]

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Paul instructions are to live by their example which is not disorderly. And that a honest day's works is deserving to an honest day of eating. Paul had heard that there were some that were instead busybodies. Does everyone know what a busybody is? Do they deserve to to paid for what they do?


2 Thess.3:7-10 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2 Thess.3:11-12 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

A child could understand this scripture. And everyone should live in giving a honest day of work.

And that is what I intend to do today.. A very beautiful garden that God has natured and blessed me with, needs to be tended. Have a good day...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Without going to the full exist on each of these scriptures refer by ScottRC, I will take one that with little effect can show what is being taught in scripture. It is not what Scott RC has offered, as any proven source to praying to saints.


Example Taken:


Paul instructions are to live by their example which is not disorderly. And that a honest day's works is deserving to an honest day of eating. Paul had heard that there were some that were instead busybodies. Does everyone know what a busybody is? Do they deserve to to paid for what they do?


2 Thess.3:7-10 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2 Thess.3:11-12 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

A child could understand this scripture. And everyone should live in giving a honest day of work.

And that is what I intend to do today.. A very beautiful garden that God has natured and blessed me with, needs to be tended. Have a good day...

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How does that explain praying or not praying through Mary?

Excellent post, Scott.

Here is a good article list for those interested in reading more:
Catholic Answers: Library: Mary & Saints

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

How does that explain praying or not praying through Mary?

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The Mother Mary was blessed correct? YES Does that blessing somehow put Christ indebted to Mary for this blessing? NO!! Do you think she felt joy and rejoiced because she then was owed in return for her honor as a servant of God? NO!!

It is man's lack of knowledge in the word that permits him to think God Our Father does not love us all equally. What the Father asks of a child is love. God is not indebted for that love.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

Jesus loved us all equally because we are all family. That is why Jesus said: Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

And also, Paul's teaching was concerning not being indebted.

The Bible is very very clear that the ONLY way to the Father is through the SON. Not a saint or Mary or anyone else. The only one that can save you from sin and forgive your sin is Jesus. Mary can't forgive you or save you. A priest can't forgive you . You don't need a priest to be the go between to God. If that were the case then Jesus' sacrifice would be null and void.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shih-tzumama

The Bible is very very clear that the ONLY way to the Father is through the SON. Not a saint or Mary or anyone else. The only one that can save you from sin and forgive your sin is Jesus. Mary can't forgive you or save you. A priest can't forgive you . You dont need a priest to be the go between to God. If that were the case then Jesus' sacrifice would be null and void.

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Exactly what I have been saying but they say the Vatican has the keys to add to the Bible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Exactly what I have been saying but they say the Vatican has the keys to add to the Bible.

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The Bible also says that anyone that adds or takes away from the words of the Bible are basically damned. Can't remember exact quote. The Vatican doesn't hold the keys to anything other than his house. Lol

Praying Through or to Mary and the saints is NOT Biblical. Jesus said "i am the way the Truth and the Light.. No man comes to the father but by ME."
Not Mary.. not dead saints.
It is a false doctrine.

Some forget that in the Bible Mary convinced Christ to do something that he initially said that he would have nothing to do with.

... and coincidentally that was his first recorded Miracle.

Yes, and one also has to realise that praying though saints is far from just catholic, almost all Christians do this, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutherans and several more. It is actually only a very very small percentage of Christians that don't. Some like the Orthodox do it more but if in the church service every Sunday the Lutherans and Anglican do it also.

I have to ask, if this was historically how it was done, if almost all Christians do it, why do the few newer denominations fail to do so.

I must of missed that all the yrs I went to Lutheran and Protestant churches I never remember anybody praying through any saints.

I have been to a vast array of churches and have NEVER seen anyone pray to a saint othr than Catholics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Exactly what I have been saying but they say the Vatican has the keys to add to the Bible.

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It's not an "addition" to the Bible, but an interpretation of the Bible different than yours.

As usual, we come to the point in the thread where I ask without an authority to decide, how are we to know which interpretation of the Bible is the correct one?

:)

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Originally Posted by RickJ

Some forget that in the Bible Mary convinced Christ to do something that he initially said that he would have nothing to do with.

...and coincidentally that was his first recorded Miracle.

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So..? Does that mean we should worship mary?

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Yes, and one also has to realise that praying though saints is far from just catholic, almost all Christians do this, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutherans and several more. It is actually only a very very small percentage of Christians that don't. some like the Orthodox do it more but if in the church service every Sunday the Lutherans and Anglican do it also.

I have to ask, if this was historically how it was done, if almost all Christians do it, why do the few newer denominations fail to do so.

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Then that means only a few Christians actually follow the Bible's teaching in my opinion because I am yet to see anywhere in the Bible where it say we should pray through the dead saints.

The Bible says Christ himself is seated at the right hand of the Father interceding for us. It also says the Holyspirit is in constant intercession for believers.
So if I have Christ and the HolySpirit Praying for Me, why do I need a dead human being (saints) to pray for me?
According to the Bible ALL born again Christians are SAINTS. So these people you are pray to or through are just like you and me. They are no more special because the Bible says in Acts 10:34 that God is not a respecter of persons. Which means st. Luke and Me are on the same level in God's eyes.. we are both His Children.
So I don't really agree with praying through dead people because I don't see any Biblical support for it.