Well first of all, I'm in ontario so I guess any answers someone can give me, hopefully you're familiar with ontario/canadian law.

All I want to know is if I committed a crime/fraud/theft or otherwise. I feel like crap for what I did. I screwed up in a big way but I really meant for things to turn out differently. Here's the odd details of situation. Some people have said it's not a crime, it's just stupidity and some have said it is... I want some more valid opinions before I REALLY freak out.

It all started last year, I met a guy through eBay who bought a car from me. That was fine. I then offered another car to him and he bought that too. I subsequently shipped them and everything was fine. On eBay, as anyone knows, I received the funds in advance and then you ship the items sold.

Here's where it all goes wrong. The buyer (a wealthy man in europe whom I've obviously never met) took me up on an offer to get him 2 more exotic cars. I told him the price (with a little profit in it for me of course) which he likely knew was in there somewhere. Now, he sent me the funds and I went and purchased his first car last July and his next car in August. First amount he sent me was 55K, next amount was 50K... I did exactly what I said I would and I DID buy the cars and waited his email to instruct me when and where to ship them... I never had ANY intention to keep his money and run (not buy the cars) because I as I said, I actually DID purchase them.

I asked for his permission to put them in my name and insure them so that I could drive them for a few weeks while I awaited his instruction... we had built up a good relationship so he agreed. I now had his 2 cars under my name and ready... this was last August... so I waited and waited... October comes along and FINALLY his wife emails me and says it's inconvenient for them to receive the cars at this point with the money they'd need to pay for duties and the fact that winter was coming, they didn't want them now and asked if I could either resell them or store them for the winter and they'd contact me in 'the spring' about the options at that point. OK fine... I agreed and also added that I'd have better luck selling cars like that in the spring... she agreed and said if I could turn a profit, great, I could keep it... they just wanted their money back if I did.

Well in December I got an offer on one of them... well below what I had actually paid because I found out it was a salvage car... me, with my bright ideas, thought I'd take the money and since I had until the spring, I'd put it in the stock market and try to raise the difference and perhaps some income for myself... playing with 35-40K... I still had possession of the second car... as anyone knows, the markets got crushed along with the money I put into in January... I lost nearly all of it. I screwed up bad. I didn't want this happen but it did.

Well I was hoping to win it back or some other resolution since I knew I stll had until spring to figure something out... I figured they'd contact me in march/april... the thing was, they never did... April passed, may passed, even June and nothing... so since I'm all out of money and options and he STILL hadn't contacted me... I thought either he was so wealthy he just forgot, or he didn't care, or he died or who knows... and I knew I still was in huge debt to him if he DOES resurface, I sold the second car... actually just a month ago... well I didn't get anywhere near what I paid for that one either as it needed a clutch and other work and had more km on it etc... so further in trouble, I tried to roll that into the market as well... NOW he contacts me out of the blue... today... his email 'hi, how's life in canada'... no mention of the money or cars yet but I know he will ask... obviously... I have pretty much nothing left of his cash... I really never ever meant to take his money or keep it or run or steal or anything... if I did, why would I have bought the cars in the first place or even shipped him the first two? I just screwed up... I gambled... trying to make back what I lost when I sold his first one... trying to make some for me as well.

What did I do? What have I done? Nervous, scared, terrified actually... I know what I did was stupid, I don't need to hear that... but what have I done legally? We never had a contract or anything... this was all done through emails and wire transfers... very odd that he would send me that much money having never met me... but I had given him reason to trust me... he COULD trust me... I didn't want his money at all... I'm a good guy... I hate that I'm even thinking of myself as a criminal now.

Please... any advice? I can't sleep. What do I tell this guy? How do I tell this guy? Can I be arrested? Sued? What?

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Originally Posted by freagemar

i hope someone actually replies with some input. i see 11 people reading my original material and not commenting ... i didn't post it to just be read, can someone actually have a thought?

anyway, i've also done some of my own research throughout the night and found that the very key detail between it being a crime (what i've done and what happened) and it being simply a big mistake on my part is the huge word 'intent' ... apparently from what i read everywhere is that what constitutes fraud or theft is that you HAVE to have intent. you had to KNOWN or KNOWINGLY misrepresented your intentions or lied about matters in order to gain property. that makes it a crime. otherwise, it's not a crime.

since, and i know the facts because i am the one at the centre of this, i never misrepresented anything. i honestly purchased the vehicles and totally intended to ship the cars etc ... it's just a chain of stupid events and poor decisions on my part that led to where i am now. i am now starting to think it is not a crime ... that being said, i'm pretty sure i can sued nonetheless for this mess.

so please, again, thoughts? opinions? anything?

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I am a little surprised by your attitude - "you didn't post to be read, you posted to be answered, does anyone 'actually' have a thought - ?" A lot of people read through, answer what is within their knowledge/experience/education (don't answer what is not, what is simply guessing) and then move on to the next post. You also said you want to hear from someone with knowledge of Ontario Law which means a lot of people responding would have to research first, same if you posted a specific (US) State -

Sometimes people don't answer because they don't want to turn the legal answer into a moral lecture - and in some cases (like this one) it's most difficult not to respond in that fashion.

So here's the answer in a nutshell - charges are most definitely NOT laid based on intent. Crimes are charged based on facts - what actually happened. Your intent does not matter. It was not your money to spend/gamble/invest. It belonged to someone else. This is theft.

If your "intent" theory held water everyone ever charged with any crime or violation would use this argument - they didn't intend to burglarize, they didn't intend to speed, they didn't intend to rob/steal/kill - and be exonerated.

Sued? I'd worry about being arrested. It wasn't your money and you spent it. Pure and simple.

Well then we just convict everyone who doesn't pay back a credit card or a student loan or money from their parents. They all expected it returned to them at some point. Are you a lawyer? I don't think so.

I've got actual legal definitions from many sources that clearly state you must have misrepresented yourself and your intentions and I never did such a thing. In fact, the very fact that I DID purchase the vehicles for him with his money proves this. Of course intent is everything... where'd you learn anything about law? I realize it takes nothing to be arrested, hell you can be arrested for littering or smoking a joint... it's CONVICTED that counts and intent is huge. It's the very difference between degrees of murder charges etc.

Even I know that I'd be MUCH worse off legally in defending myself had I just taken the original $100K or so and ran... that's utter and complete theft and fraud. But no, I went out and bought those cars, kept up correspondence and so forth... it was only when I was told to sell or store the cars that things went wrong and I began making mistakes. I had every intention along the way of trying to preserve his money and returning it and or the car(s).

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Originally Posted by freagemar

well then we just convict everyone who doesn't pay back a credit card or a student loan or money from their parents. they all expected it returned to them at some point. are you a lawyer? i don't think so.

i've got actual legal definitions from many sources that clearly state you must have misrepresented yourself and your intentions and i never did such a thing. in fact, the very fact that i DID purchase the vehicles for him with his money proves this. of course intent is everything ... where'd you learn anything about law? i realize it takes nothing to be arrested, hell you can be arrested for littering or smoking a joint ...it's CONVICTED that counts and intent is huge. it's the very difference between degrees of murder charges etc.

even i know that i'd be MUCH worse off legally in defending myself had i just taken the original $100K or so and ran ... that's utter and complete theft and fraud. but no, i went out and bought those cars, kept up correspondence and so forth ... it was only when i was told to sell or store the cars that things went wrong and i began making mistakes. i had every intention along the way of trying to preserve his money and returning it and or the car(s).

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I learned the law in Law School - how about you?

So wait until you're sued or arrested and then we'll know if you are correct and "mistake" is a defense to spending someone else's money and/or fraud -

And I'm sure someone else (of the 11 - or whatever it is) people who chose not to answer you on the first round will come on by and give their opinion.

Hello freag:

Well, I ain't never gone to law school, and I ain't no lawyer... But, I know stealing when I see it. My friend Judy, does too.

You keep talking about your intentions as though they're honorable... But, like most crooks, you're in denial. By the way, what was your intention when you bought stocks with his money?? I'm sure you're going to twist it into something you were doing FOR him...

Actually, in terms of the law, it's called fraud. You raised money for one purpose, but you diverted it for your OWN purpose. That's a crime. If he calls the cops instead of suing you, you'll go to jail.

I know you don't think you stole this guys money. I did time with a lot of guys like you...

excon

2. The appropriation must be not only unlawful, but it must be made with a knowledge that the property belongs to another and with a design to deprive him of the same. It is unlawful to take the property of another; but if it be done with a design of preserving it for the owners or if it be taken by mistake, it is not done designedly or knowingly and, therefore, does not come within the definition of fraud.

Just a little a tidbit on a site regarding the technicalities of what constitutes fraud. See, I can tell now everyone'll just slag me and convict me here because of my 'attitude' and I won't get an objective opinion at all but do you read there how if it is done with the design of preserving it for the owners or taken by mistake it is NOT considered fraud? Of course you idiot, I meant to keep it... I don't give a rat's about the fellow jailbirds and low-lifes you did time with... I've never done anything like this, I don't have a record of stealing or committing crime against others... nor did I intend to... I knew the car wasn't going to fetch what HE paid ME for it so I decided (and chanced it) that I would attempt to make up the difference in the market... I'm not a saint, sure I was hoping I could make some as well, who wouldn't? But I thought the only way I could make it up was by risking it.

Really, honestly, use your heads, if I was a TRUE thief and taking money and defrauding this guy was absolutely what I intended from the get-go, why the hell would I have wasted the money on the cars in the first place? Any good defence lawyer or judge worth his salt will ponder that same question... doesn't make me a very wise and efficient scam artist when I could have easily just used the 100K right off the bat and go into the stock market with that or leave the country! Some people on here don't think, at all...

Let me use my own analogy for you... let's say a guy goes into a fight with another guy and he knows that he has a gun in his pocket... but he thinks to himself "nah, i'm no killer, i just wanna fight this guy and iron out our differences over what happened in the pub"... so he keeps his gun in his pocket and rolls up his sleeves and dukes it out... a few punches are exchanged and the worst thing happens, he accidentally kills the other guy... unlucky punch. Did he intend all along to kill the guy? Is he a murderer? An SOB, low-life killer? Really eh? That's why he didn't even bring out his gun and just shoot the other man which he very well could have... no, he fought him and subsequently killed him by mistake... big difference! Huge in fact.

Now please, I implore you... can I REAL opinion and not from people that are just now feeling like they have a bone to pick with me because I disagree with them. Nowhere along these threads have I said that what I did was RIGHT or JUST or WONDERFUL? I KNOw more than anyone that I screwed up pretty bad.

Hello again, f:

Check out my name, Dude. I don't know why you think I have an agenda. I LOVE stealing. I hope you steal it all. But, you're not going to convince me of your innocence. I don't care. Tell it to the judge.

excon

Exactly. Guys like you belong in jail. In fact, are you replying from kingston? See, I'm not like you... I DON'T love stealing. I didn't want to ever commit a crime. I took a gamble and blew it. Now I want to know my legal options and expectations etc. that's all... I never said I didn't do something wrong.

I built a bomb in high school and that's plain 'n simple terrorism to you, right? Or to anyone on the board... but guess what... I got off with nothing. Things are not cut 'n dry, black 'n white in law... that's why we have lawyers... if they were, we wouldn't need defence lawyers... thety'd be useless. You spent money that wasn't yours, you're guilty? It's not that simple... that's what they call mitigating factors... bits of the story and facts and evidence that come into play to possibly reduce the level of guilt for an accused. Look up the term. I didn't just tell the guy 'hey, send me 100K so I can go on permanent vacation in the bahamas and never be heard from again'... THAT'S cut 'n dry.

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Originally Posted by freagemar

exactly. guys like you belong in jail. in fact, are you replying from kingston? see, i'm not like you ... i DON'T love stealing. i didn't want to ever commit a crime. i took a gamble and blew it. now i wanna know my legal options and expectations etc. that's all ... i never said i didn't do something wrong.

i built a bomb in high school and that's plain 'n simple terrorism to you, right? or to anyone on the board ... but guess what ... i got off with nothing. things are not cut 'n dry, black 'n white in law ... that's why we have lawyers ... if they were, we wouldn't need defence lawyers ... thety'd be useless. you spent money that wasn't yours, you're guilty? it's not that simple ... that's what they call mitigating factors ... bits of the story and facts and evidence that come into play to possibly reduce the level of guilt for an accused. look up the term. i didn't just tell the guy 'hey, send me 100K so i can go on permanent vacation in the bahamas and never be heard from again' ... THAT'S cut 'n dry.

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Maybe if you had done some time for building the bomb you would have learned that [drum roll, please] crime does not pay.

Actually, it seems to me that they have grounds for fraud for you spending their 50K on a car with a salvage title. And, even you state that the agreement was that if you sold the cars, you could keep "the profit". So, if you buy for 50K, and sell for 20K, your next move is to say "here's the money I could get for it." The minute you didn't do that, you stole the money. So yes, I think that you can be charged with both fraud (on the initial transaction) and theft on using the proceeds of the sale.

And, if you really want to put this all behind you, I'd be scraping up 105K to send back to the guy.

And, of course, I have to wonder about anyone who sends 105K to someone they don't know, with apparently very little paperwork, to buy some very expensive cars. I'm thinking that's dirty money being laundered, which may get you in even more trouble. And it may be that the cops are the least of your problems if that is the case.

Well I have no idea if it's dirty money or not and don't care. That has nothing to do with me. He's a very wealthy man from what I know of him. And no, I didn't buy the cars because I KNEW they were salvaged. I had no idea when I bought them. And when I sold them for less than I paid, I just figured I could, or at least attempt, to make up the difference in the market.

Anyway, is this board just a giant proverbial knee to be bent over and spanked on and given moral lessons? I just want to know, really, TECHNICALLY, is it fraud or theft or neither... nevertheless, I'll be going to actual lawyers this week and if they tell me not to sweat it and that it's neither... you can bet I'll posting that on here to rub in the faces of the apparent experts on this blog.

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Originally Posted by freagemar

well i have no idea if it's dirty money or not and don't care. that has nothing to do with me. he's a very wealthy man from what i know of him. and no, i didn't buy the cars cos i KNEW they were salvaged. i had no idea when i bought them. and when i sold them for less than i paid, i just figured i could, or at least attempt, to make up the difference in the market.

anyway, is this board just a giant proverbial knee to be bent over and spanked on and given moral lessons? i just wanna know, really, TECHNICALLY, is it fraud or theft or neither ... nevertheless, i'll be going to actual lawyers this week and if they tell me not to sweat it and that it's neither ... you can bet i'll posting that on here to rub in the faces of the apparent experts on this blog.

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I'll be holding my breath, waiting.

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Originally Posted by freagemar

well i have no idea if it's dirty money or not and don't care. that has nothing to do with me. he's a very wealthy man from what i know of him. and no, i didn't buy the cars cos i KNEW they were salvaged. i had no idea when i bought them.

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That's my reason for thinking that it's fraud. You presented yourself as an agent for the buyer, and, I assume, told him you could get him car X for price Y. It's incumbent on you, in that case, to ensure that car X is in fact what you present it as, in this case, a car that isn't salvaged. Because a salvaged car is not worth price Y. And how hard is it to determine whether the car has a salvage title before you buy it? Not very. I did that research before buying a used car.

The car did not officially have a salvaged title. I should clairy. It's just that from the opinion of the dealer I went to, it had been in an accident and repainted. That doesn't actually mean it was salvaged. Salvaged vehicles are write-offs. Furthermore, I never presented to him any vehicle and being in one condition or another... he sent me essentially shopping, trusting my apparent expertise and opinion and never presented myself as a legit car salesman or agent... he just knew me casually as a friend he met online, that's all.

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Originally Posted by freagemar

the car did not officially have a salvaged title. i should clairy. it's just that from the opinion of the dealer i went to, it had been in an accident and repainted. that doesn't actually mean it was salvaged. salvaged vehicles are write-offs. furthermore, i never presented to him any vehicle and being in one condition or another ... he sent me essentially shopping, trusting my apparent expertise and opinion and never presented myself as a legit car salesman or agent ... he just knew me casually as a friend he met online, that's all.

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And what does this have to do with you spending money that is not yours?

Actually, if you want to get REALLY technical, the money was wired in MY account to buy cars that, with HIS permission, to be put into MY name and driven around... then a few months later, he asks if I can try to resell them or store them? Where is the evdience that is not to be MY money? There was no agreement, nothing signed, nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by freagemar

actually, if you wanna get REALLY technical, the money was wired in MY account to buy cars.....where is the evdience that is not to be MY money? there was no agreement, nothing signed, nothing at all.

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Hello again, fr:

So, you have no problem lying about your agreement, then?? Yup, you're an honorable fellow all right.

excon

Actually, I have to say that this deal stinks to high heaven, on both sides. I was initially expecting to read that the person buying the cars got fake checks, and was out the money. But, if this goes to court, I'm not sure it passes the "reasonable person" test on either side. Someone is getting scammed, just not sure who.

Actually froggy, funny you mention the money laundering bit... my bank froze my account last year when these wire transfers came through saying it could be money being laundered. I had no idea what they were talking about.. to me that crap only happened in the news or in the scorsese flicks. They asked where I got that much money and why and I told them... they simply made me put it through my business account, checked out the sender (a little I assume) and then unfroze my funds. It was very strange.

Nevertheless, a little update for all the lawyer wannabes on here. I finally got in touch with a lawyer tonight on the phone. High powered bay st street lawyer here in toronto... I only was afforded this luxory because he's my ex's new father-in-law otherwise I could never even THINK about hiring a guy of this calibre for representation and it's funny... just as I said... he told me to provide documents, proof, paperwork and emails that show that I purchased the vehicles and originally had thorough intentions of completing the deal... ie: buying the cars and corresponding with the buyer about shipping etc and I'd be probably fine from a criminal standpoint... you see, all you idiots who think the law is black 'n white and have that neanderthal approach to things... have no real clue of how the court system works... again, I state, that's why we have lawyers... otherwise what would be the point? YES WE KNOW I SPENT MONEY AND TOOK RISKS THAT I Shouldn't HAVE... DUH!! The question and burdon of proof lies in the plaintiff to show that I had INTENDED from the start to defraud him.

Like my lawyer said, "if we show that it was a business or commercial transaction gone south, hey, business deals fall through all the time ... was there stupidity committed, absolutely ... a crime? not necessarily" making an error in judgement is not a crime.

And it's so transparent now that people are just siding with the buyer because they don't like my perceived arrogance 'n so forth and that's fine... but let's have objective thoughts here people... I assumed that's what this site was for. Easy to gang up on someone when they've seemingly done something wrong... thank god none of you are defence lawyers.

If cases were so black 'n white, cut 'n dry... the courts would go through cases about 1 every 45 seconds... there would be no back-ups in the system... no need for a jury... nothing... just "did you steal?"... GUILTY!. "did you kill the guy?" GUILTY!! It doesn't work like that... there are facts to go through even for the supposed guilty defendant... none of you ask about or suggest any possible twist or means to which I could be seen as less guilty or not guilty at all... and I find that odd on a place for objective opinions and debate.