Ask Me Help Desk - Motion detection with timer and 3-way switch possible?

There are two problems I'd like to solve in one fell swoop.

1. I consistently leave my garage lights on overnight (4 bulbs no less). Need an auto-off timer.
2. Sometimes I enter the garage at night from the house only to have to return to the house to switch the lights on. A motion detector would help me out with this.

Is there a way to wire a timed motion sensor where there are two switches, one in the garage and one in the house? Where would I find the correct motion sensor/timer? Lowe's only has basic single pole motion detection available.

One problem I see with putting a motion sensor in the garage is that if I do remember to turn the lights on before entering the garage the motion sensor may end up turning the lights out as I enter, unless there is some fancy switching or wiring I can do to overcome that.

Any advice on this topic is most welcome.

JP

I don't know how to wire up what you want - but I have a great idea for you. Buy some of those compact fluorescent bulbs. The 60 watts are the lowest wattages I think are available. They only use something like 15 watts of power to run. They seem much brighter than the regular light bulbs. Try using 2 instead of 4 bulbs, then if they are left on you're not wasting as much electric.

Why not the following:

An X-10, or similar switch in the garage.
An X-10, or similar switch in the house.
I'd have to research a bit.
X-10 is a power line control method.

Then both can turn the light on or off from either location.

Then use a timer to turn the lights off at a given time unless the motion detector is activated. e.g. motion detector/occupancy sensor always activates the lights. Occupancy sensor is probably better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

I don't know how to wire up what you want - but I have a great idea for you. Buy some of those compact flourescent bulbs. The 60 watts are the lowest wattages I think are available. They only use something like 15 watts of power to run. They seem much brighter than the regular light bulbs. Try using 2 instead of 4 bulbs, then if they are left on you're not wasting as much electric.

Thanks for your input. I should have mentioned I have already switched to the compact fluorescent bulbs, so I'm only burning about 80 watts with all 4 on vs 400 watts previously. Each bulb is well placed, so I'd prefer not to leave some out of commission.

I picked up some screw-in fittings that claim to auto-turn off an individual bulb after 15 minutes. They were $8.99 each however they don't work (over half of the units at Lowe's were obviously returns, I'll be returning mine tomorrow).

A motion detector can be put on a circuit with 3-way switches. Why would you want to? The motion detector will turn the light on and off as long as you are in the garage and periodically moving around. The only problem is that this will occur during daylight hours as well as nighttime. To prevent that you could run the circuit through a photo cell after the motion detector. The photo cell will have to be outside. The lights would turn the photo cell off if it is on the inside. If you are in the garage and not periodically moving, the lights will of course turn off. Most motion detectors can be set to manual by turning the switch off and back on in 10 seconds. A switch in the garage would allow you to do that.
Now if you think you are going to set the motion detector to manual and forget until you are in the house you could make the switch in the garage a 3-way with another in the house. If you wish you could have course substitute a timer in place of th photo cell. The timer motor would have to be powered by a source other than through the motion detector. This may or may not also be true of the photo cell. I can't specifically remember the wiring of the photo cell at the moment. If so, you would have to run the light power through the photo cell and have the motion detector close an normally open relay after the photo cell.

Here is an occupancy sensor:

Leviton Commercial Grade Wall Mounted Occupancy Sensor - Ivory

This:
Decorator Multi-Way Companion X10 Dimmer Switch Slave

In conjunction with an XPS3 (non-dimming) Master

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkstroud

A motion detector can be put on a circuit with 3-way switches. Why would you want to? The motion detector will turn the light on and off as long as you are in the garage and periodically moving around. The only problem is that this will occur during daylight hours as well as nighttime. To prevent that you could run the circuit thru a photo cell after the motion detector. The photo cell will have to be outside. The lights would turn the photo cell off if it is on the inside. If you are in the garage and not periodically moving, the lights will of course turn off. Most motion detectors can be set to manual by turning the switch off and back on in 10 seconds. A switch in the garage would allow you to do that.
Now if you think you are going to set the motion detector to manual and forget until you are in the house you could make the switch in the garage a 3-way with another in the house. If you wish you could of course substitute a timer in place of th photo cell. The timer motor would have to be powered by a source other than thru the motion detector. This may or may not also be true of the photo cell. I can't specifically remember the wiring of the photo cell at the moment. If so, you would have to run the light power thru the photo cell and have the motion detector close an normally open relay after the photo cell.

Your photo cell idea would only work at night right? Or am I not understanding your solution?

Is there a way to wire up a motion detector as single pole next to and also retaining the existing 3-way manual switch in the garage therefore avoiding the on/off problem with the motion detector?

I'm not concerned about the lights going out if I am still in the garage but not moving, I can soon enough wave my arms. Preventing motion from toggling the lights on/off is a concern however which I hope your solution addresses.

Thanks for your detailed response.

JP

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

Why not the following:

An X-10, or similar switch in the garage.
An X-10, or similar switch in the house.
I'd have to research a bit.
X-10 is a power line control method.

Then both can turn the light on or off from either location.

Then use a timer to turn the lights off at a given time unless the motion detector is activated. e.g. motion detector/occupancy sensor always activates the lights. Occupancy sensor is probably better.

Hmmm...

At first I thought your solution would be too expensive but this X10 stuff isn't that expensive anymore! The only relatively expensive component is a standalone controller to allow everything to continue working if the computer is off.

I'll do a little more research.

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPWhite

Is there a way to wire up a motion detector as single pole next to and also retaining the existing 3-way manual switch in the garage therefore avoiding the on/off problem with the motion detector?

Not sure I understand question.

Normal set up.

You have circuit going to a motion detector controlled light through a single pole switch.
Switch is always on.

Motion detector is in automatic mode. You change to manual buy turning off switch and turning back on with in 10 seconds. You switch back to automatic by turning off switch for 1 minute or more.

Your set up. You have 3-way switch in house and in garage. Power to motion detector is own. You enter garage, lights come on. You leave garage, lights go off. You set the amount of time for light to remain on after sensing last movement.

You working at work bench, not moving around (or just sitting there drinking beer and hiding from wife), light go out. You turn switch off, immediately back on. Light come own and stay own.

You go back in house, forget about lights. Wife reminds you that lights on. You go to 3-way switch in house turn off. After one minute you turn switch back on. Lights come on and stay on for set amount of time then go off. Back in automatic mode.

If the lights were on the outside you would use a motion detector/photo cell. Same thing would happen except photo cell would prevent light from coming own during daylight hours. On the inside the lights themselves would cause the photo cell to turn lights off after coming on unless you can shield the photo cell from the lights.

You could just use motion detector and ignore that they come on during the day unnecessarily.

KISS's occupancy sensor implies that it can distinguish ambient light and relieve the daylight hours, I don't know.

Leviton Commercial Grade Wall Mounted Occupancy Sensor-

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkstroud

KISS's occupancy sensor implies that it can distinguish ambient light and relieve the daylight hours, I don't know.

Leviton Commercial Grade Wall Mounted Occupancy Sensor-

I think it will work, their technical info says

Quote:

Background Light
To maximize energy savings in some installations, the ambient light override feature will prevent the wall sensor from switching lights ON when there is ample natural sunlight, regardless of occupancy. This adjustment should be made when the ambient light is at the level where no artificial light is needed. Adjustable Ambient Light Override ranges from approximately 2 foot-candles (2 lux) to 500+ foot-candles (500+ lux.).

Well guys. I'lad I stimulated a discussiom rather than throwing out a solution.

PIR deterctors are not photocells. They are looking for specific Infrred energy emiited by people as opposed to the ultrasonic based sensors, so they are resistant to false triggering.

If you noted. I didn't point out, that test modules have 3 way- capability, but as usual it's difficult to want wireless control + 3 way capability.

It's not easy, but I broke it down into 3 problems:

1. Turn on/off lights from 2 locations without major wiring. (X-10)
2. Turn on lights when there motion (usually you get and when the ambient light exceeds a given value) and you get (for a given time).
3. As an option "Lights out at 11 PM or whatever May or May not be needed.

There is an X-10 module which will initiate some code depending on whether it's contact make or contact break or momentary. Outputs, I believe are on/off or toggle.

There were simple X-10 timers, but I didn't see any at smarthome.

Put together right, you may not even need option #3. You may just need the ability to rurn things off at two locations.

Some background:

I used B&D's version that has an RF remote, handheld remote and a RF receiver module and a light switch. for a porch exterior light.

Your supposed to be able to program a garage door opener (Homelink system) to activate the X-10 module, but I have not been able to get that to work. That system is permanently mounted in the vehicle. So the one vehicle gets a keychain remote.

So, the light can be turned on rom the car.

Problem #1 solved. I'lluminate the driveway, so you don't fumble with the keys. A memberof the household has walking problems.

Problem #2. I forget to turn the light out when I take out the garbage. It's sometimes COLD on the porch. Used a wall/handheld RF transmitter to turn off the porch ligt from inside the warm house.

It's turned out to be quite usefull.

Here is another one:

I mounted an exterior motion detector on top of a China closet pointed into the entrance to a living room. The receiver can be a chime and has a plug output for two different on times. WHat I don't like about the system is that, it's desined for outside with driveway alert capability. I'd like the "Dark" value to be much higer before the system works.

The receiver has a nightlight plugged in it and basically allows one to enter, "light", and go to the opposite side of the room turn on a light and sit down.

This is again a creative use of technology.

In order to get lower light levels, I'd have to reverse engineer a little bit like put a parallel resistor across the CdS cell. Who knows.

Both have been extremely useful, but I'm not willing to spend the time to achieve 99.9% what I want.

I even had to buy more components that I wanted because they were not available separely. Only in sets. I had to buy (1 keychain remote, 1 wall remote, 2 RF receivers), so I have an extra receiver.