Hello,
The question is If you connect to a stangers unsecured wi-fi (without permission) and use it only for legal perposes (such as the internet) without acessing any of their other resources, is it illegal?
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Hello,
The question is If you connect to a stangers unsecured wi-fi (without permission) and use it only for legal perposes (such as the internet) without acessing any of their other resources, is it illegal?
Yes it is illegal, because it is a private network, and you did not ask their permission to use it.
Yes it is
Hello:
I don't know. Does your use of the network diminish the owners? I don't think so. Does it cost the owner MORE because you're using it? I don't think so. Will the owner even be aware that you're using it? I don't think so.
So, if nobody looses anything, why is it a crime?
excon
AGREES!
It is the responsibility of the wireless router owner to secure their network if they do not want untended users to be able to have access to it.
If I open my laptop, turn it on, and it tells me I have a wireless network available, and I can access it without any password, how have I broken any law?
What law would cover this supposed crime?
Actually... It can be argued both ways.
1. Technically, it's a private network and so you should need explicit permission to connect.
However:
2. Because of the proliferation of public access networks if their network is unsecured (no WPA or WEP) it could be assumed that the owner intended it to be widely available. (You can't put out a bowl of candy with a Take One sign and then complain that people are stealing your candy!)
In the second case, as long as you are not accessing the private machines on the network or causing a degradation of service for other users you should be fine. At the worst, some authority figure will tell you not to do it again and let you off the hook.
@excon: That's the same flawed argument used to justify piracy of intellectual property on the internet.
Hello S:
Not really. With piracy of intellectual property, there IS a victim.
excon
I'd say that this information from your first link, supports the view that while it MAY be a crime, the chance of ever being charged are slim to none at this time.
The key being there is really no victim, just as excon has stated.
"There's concerns about whether or not you could actually charge theft because you're not actually taking anything from that business who provides that service," explained St. Joseph County Prosecutor Mike Dvorak. "They're not paying any more for it, because the person sits out in the parking lot, hacks into it."
Commander Kajzer also explained how the boundaries of a business's wireless networks aren't clear. Should the boundary end at the door or the edge of the property? What about nearby neighbors who can access the signal?
"But Prosecutor Dvorak admits you'll have to do something worse than using someone else's connection to get in serious trouble.
"Our greater concern is what someone is stealing from someone else," he explained. "What that interloper is taking from you: identification, defrauding you and taking money out of your account."
Yes, it is illegal. It's actually called theft of services. Again, as stated by progunr, the chances of being prosecuted for it aren't very high.
Oh, and FYI, if you knowingly let someone use your Internet who isn't a part of your household, your ISP can come after you for theft of services as well. I learned this the hard way, actually.
Amen.Quote:
Originally Posted by twilcox
If you steal my wireless connection, the chances of prosecution are very high. I am paying for a service and if you make use of it, you are stealing from me. There is no argument there. Don't fool yourself into thinking there are no victims. It is ceartainly not a violent crime but that does not change the fact that it is illegal.
This should be a wakeup call for anybody that does not secure their wireless network. There are a lot of people out there that do not mind stealing what you pay for. Secure your wireless network. You put locks on your house, why not your assets contained on your computer?
Hello chuck:
I'm using a non secured wireless connection right now. Do you mean to tell me that my valuable data on my computer is at risk? Is there legal software that will tell me, or other users, who else is on the network? Will that software give me access to their computer? Does the owner of the network know who's online? Is my using the network preventing someone else from using it, or even diminishing the speed of the network?
I understand how you think of yourself as a victim... But, I'd like to know how using your network damages you in any way, shape, or form. Oh, I know it's illegal. That's not what I'm asking.
I have a feeling the answers to my questions are no.
excon
Any time you're on an unsecured wireless network, you are at risk. You wouldn't broadcast your credit card information over the radio, would you? Did you know that's pretty much what you're doing when you buy something online using an unsecured wireless network?
Yes, there is legal software that tracks user information on a network, we use it at work, actually. And it is actually VERY easy to see if someone is using your network, all you have to do is look at the DHCP table on your router and spot the computer name that doesn't fit in your network. There are other ways, too, but that's the most used and the easiest.
1) I'm responsible for anything you do online using my network connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
2) You're stealing my bandwidth, and I pay good money for that.
3) If you're on my network, you have access to my resources.
I don't care if you live in a tiny little town of 500 people, lock it down! Locks are designed to keep honest people honest. Wireless security is designed to keep honest people honest and to help keep your data safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckhole
Hello again, t:Quote:
Originally Posted by twilcox
I don't want to know "pretty much". I want to know specifically IF, when I bank online using the non secured network that I'm on, am and I BROADCASTING my personal data, or not?
If you're the computer whiz you portend, then you ought to be able to give me a definitive answer.
I get that you think using your unsecured network is stealing. I won't argue with you further about that.
excon
An Internet connection is a fixed amount of bandwidth. If you are using my connection to download files, you are taking that bandwidth and if I am using it at the same time, then the speed of my connection is diminished by what you are using. If you are sharing your connection with other members of the family, then their connection is effected as well. You can only fit so much water through a hose.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Secondly, if you really want to "sniff" the data on a connection, all you need is physical access. We use Protocol Analyzers at work to troubleshoot our coporate network and these same analyzers can be used for illegal purposes as well. The see everything in their raw forms unless the data is encrypted.
Yes, your data can be stolen from you and I KNOW HOW TO DO IT. The knowledge I have is used for legal and ethical purposes though and for good reason. Not everyone that knows how to steal your data makes this same distinction. You have to know how to break in to the data if you are going to learn how to protect it.
Hello again, chuck:
Wheeeew. Fortunately, my bank and my broker DO encrypt their sites. Does THAT mean I'm protected??
Ok, OK, Dude. I got it. I'm not arguing that anymore.
excon
I used to think it was illegal but this new information has changed my mind:
Why it's OK to 'steal' Wi-Fi | Computerworld Blogs
Hello again, chuckee baby:
I KNEW my instincts were correct. I read NK's article. DUDE, the argument is BACK ON!
excon
Its against US Federal law to access a private computer network without permission. While I understand the argument in the Computerworld blog that, if the network owner didn't secure their network, then its their fault if someone uses it, is bogus. If you you leave your car running with the keys in it while you run into a store, does that make it OK for someone to steal it?
While I agree that its unlikely that someone will be prosecuted for connecting to his neighbor's router, its also unlikely that one will be prosecuted for jaywalking. But it can (and has) happened.
Actually Scott your example is a little off.
To be more accurate the car would be running, with the keys in the ignition AND the doors wide open, but unfortunately it falls over slightly as bandwidth isn't physical.
The burden of proof in cases like this would be extremely difficult due to the nature of wireless.
Yes you could glean the MAC address from the router, but as we know that can be spoofed.
This is why on the whole, there are very few convictions for wardriving.
The practice of acquiring unsecured wireless access by travelling around your neighbourhood with a wifi enabled device. ( War_driving )
The main convictions of note have been when this practice has been used for a further illegal act.
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