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I have a few questions that I need help on. I recently moved into my home and discovered a few things.
1. 12-2 wire has been ran throughout the house. Can you use a 15 amp outlet on a 20 AMP breaker with 12-2??
2. How many lights would you say you can run on 12-2 and/or 14-2 wire?
3. How many outlets would you say you can run on 12-2 and/or 14-2 wire?
I would like to find out if everything is OK, before I call a someone. Thank You!!
Yes a 15 amp outlet can be used on a 20 amp circuit, the outlet is limited to 15 amp, since you cannot plug in a 20 amp plug into it.
Since this is residential, there is no code or regulation to limit the quantity of outlets, either lights or receptacles, on a 15 or 20 amp circuit.
What is your specific situation to cause you to ask ?
Hey, thanks for the info. Here is the situation, I have a 36' by 81' pole barn. The only electrical thing in it is 100 AMP breaker box and one outlet. Well, I want to run lights and a lot more outlets and such. Put in horse stalls and a new bathroom. All of which I can do myself if I want to. I just want to make sure I know what I am doing before I make the decision whether to hire someone else. 14-2 is just cheaper than 12-2 wire but I want to do it right. I didn't know where I could save a little money or not.
If it has a high ceiling, you might look into fewer, but metal halide lights. More expensive initially, but much less work. Four 175 watt lights might be enough to light up the whole thing. The bulbs would last for years. Great advantage for hard to get at fixtures. Count on electricity going up, but once paid for, the more efficient lights never go up. The sodium vapor lights are good too, but have a yellow cast.
I will leave tk give good answers to the wiring details.
Depending on your abilities, you may be able to wire the entire barn, all the lights, outlets, switches, all back to the panel.
If this is a single family home, you should be able to get a homeowner permit from your town building official. You may need to go to the library and review the National Electric Code, especially Article 547, for Agricultural Buildings, as there are specific rules for wiring a building that will house livestock.
Now my previous post related to residential wiring, and not to Ag bldg. Whole different set of rules. Pay special attention to grounding because of the livestock.
At 81 foot long I would be using #12 wire, and creating all 20 amp circuits. You can load a non-residential 20 amp circuit with 1920 watts , and connect no more than 10 receptacles to a 20 amp circuit.
As long as you think you can wire it yourself without causing any sparks or stray voltages around straw and livestock, have at it.
You do realize that you cannot use the same Romex that a home is wired with in a barn? As I think about this and review Art 547, you can look at it for yourself, but I think you may be better getting in a pro. See what you think and get back with any other questions you may have.
Ok, thanks for the info... Well, I was planning on using 12-2 wire in conduit but I will look into the electrical codes. Could there be a copy of all the codes on the internet? What type of romex you think I should use?
You will have great difficulty trying to find the complete National Electric Code online to review, or any code for that matter. Codes are sold as intellectual property and seems the publisher is very good at limiting free access, at least on the net. If anyone can find a complete on line version, please let me know.
I do know that well stocked libraries will have a copy, usually in the reference section, and not for take out.
I will give you a quick review to get you going and not make you wait until you get to read for yourself.
Romex, Type NM-C is allowed, however, the normal everyday Romex Type NM and NM-B are not allowed, and look similar.
EMT, steel and aluminum rigid conduit, PVC Sch 40 and 80 conduit, and several other methods are allowed in AG bldgs. Because of less cost and ease of installing I would use all PVC Sch 40 conduit, fittings and boxes. All boxes must dust tight, and if in an area that is damp or wet, if any area can be hosed down, then all boxes and fittings must be watertight.
This is very easy to comply with by using PVC conduit and fittings, and the cost is not wacky. Although prices have been rising lately due to foreign demand, mostly steel and copper have been affected. And PVC is so easy to install, just cut and glue, hard part is to bend you can buy pre made 90 deg elbows, but sometimes you need just a kick or an offset. You can find a bender that is a heat mat, marketed as a PVC bender, probably about $60 for a small one good for 1/2" up to 1" conduit.
I would recommend that you pull individual colored #12 THHN wires in the conduit, instead of trying to pull Romex cable in the conduit.All the conduit must have a #12 green for the equipment ground to each device.
The reason for such regulations and detail to house livestock are important. I am a city boy, but the barns I have been in are usually dusty, wet, and animal waste.
Dust, when dispersed in the atmosphere just right , can be very explosive and set off by sparks. So care is taken to be sure no dust can migrate into electrical boxes, where sparks can happen. Needless to say water and electricity do not mix, so that is easy to understand. And the wiring method must installed in such a fashion so that the livestock, 1500 pounds of horse and steel tip shoes , do not damage the wiring system, or the method is something that can take physical abuse. The waste products are considered as corrosive to certain materials so the wiring method must be able to stand up to reactants.
Grounding is important, most receptacles must be GFI protected, those that are outdoors, wet locations indoors, and that lie in an Equiopotential Plane, and any areas not in the Equiopotential Plane but are dirt floors.
Equiopotential Plane,I bet you are wondering about this term.
This is the area, typically a concrete floor with any metal reinforcement in it, must be connected to the electrical grounding system with a min #8 copper wire, and must connect to ALL metal that the animals will come in contact with. Animals are very sensitive to stray voltages and can detect small amounts of current , and this will happen if their area is not all connected and grounded, thus equalizing their area to zero volts.
These are the high lights that I am sure you can understand and gives you enough to decide how you will like to proceed.
As for lighting systems, as long as you wire with an approved method,cable works here, no worry about physical protection since it is up on the ceiling. PVC conduit is preferred thou , at least by me anyway, because it looks professional.
Labman suggested metal halide , good for high ceilings and one fixture has a large lumen distribution pattern , so if unobstructed area , can reduce the amount of fixtures, They work well in cold temps, rated down to -20 Deg F. one downside to MH is they will not start right away, they take 5-10 minutes to get to full light output. You can supplement a rapid start flourscent fixture just enough to see until the MH are on full.
You can use all flourscent fixtures, must be at least HO,High Output, with cold temp lamps, but you will need more fixtures. Any fixture must at least be dust proof, MH cost about $150-250 , and an 8 foot vaporproof fixture will be about $200, so you can see the benefit of using metal halide, fixture type should be a dust tight Low Bay style fixture.
I hope this is enough for now to get you thinking and planning. Do not hesitate to get back if you have any other questions.
WOW... lots of info. Thanks again!! Ok, well I will be off to Lowe's to get prices on all that stuff and put an estimate together. I think I will call a pro to at least get a qoute. One question though... Why can't you use reg. 12-2 wire in PVC conduit? When I get back from Lowe's, I am sure I will have more questions. Would Lowe's or home depot or menards be the best place to buy the stuff I need? Thanks again!!
For big jobs, with a Lowe's and HD right here, I drive an hour out of town to Menards. You may also find your local contractor oriented electrical supply cheaper than all 3.
I don't like the thin wall metal conduit. I see too much of it where the metal tubing has pulled out of a fitting and is hanging on the wires. Of course the PVC can break. After training myself to spot that stuff before the OSHA inspector did when I managed a factory, stuff like that still catches my eye. The foremen learned to spot it before I did.
Anywhere the horse might reach it, you might go with the rigid, expensive and hard to work with. I used it in this small project.
http://www.photolocker.net/images/Labman/KatetheAC.jpg
The dog had chewed through the plastic flex, tore the foam off the vapor line, and destroyed the control wires. Just in case, I replaced the plastic disconnect with a steel one.
When I replaced the old A/C, I shoved the old 10-2 into the conduit. It was cheaper, but harder than going and buying new singles for even a small job. 12-2 may be cheaper, but is going to get tiring fighting it and you aren't going to save much. Some of the A/C and furnace work I left to the contractor I bought it through. I am pretty adventuresome for a DIY, but some parts of the job are best left to a professional. Might be a good compromise to find one that will work with you.
Good point, I will have to call the local supply company. Menards is good, but here where I live. NO customer service and something's they sell are cheap and don't last long. I like a lot of other stuff they have. I will have to check there also. Thanks for the input!! I will get my material list together if you both don't mind checking over it to make sure I have everything right. The pro is coming out tomorrow to give me a quote. Hopefully that won't be a scary thing to see. Lol I am also going to go look at the code book tomorrow.
See again being a city boy shows through, and I won't go near a horse, I should rememeber on MASH where the horse kicks through the wall.
Steel rigid at least down low, is a good thing considering the power a horse has, hey get it horsepower. Then up higher the conduit can change to back to PVC. Downside is the expence of the boxes and covers.
There is no code against pushing romex through conduit, but I believe it should be limited to short pieces through walls, etc. because of the difficulty pushing through the soild wires and the plastic sheathing and the large amount of friction created. . Take just a sweep and try pushing or pulling 12-2 cable just through that. You will see what I mean. That is what individual wires are for.
You can get a electrician's fish tape or snake , push that through, set your wire reels up on a short piece of steel conduit use the ladder as a holder for the reels and attach the wires to the snake, and pull the whole harness through.
Strip 4 in on each wire, cut off all the strands except six or so strands, push through eye on ehnd of snake , splice and twist the wires tape with electricians tape taper the tape and off you go. For long runs you can use wire lube .
Here is where you will need to know how many wires can fit into a certain size conduit. I believe there are charts at HD and Lowe's , it certainly is in the code, and can also be found on the net, at manufacturers website.
The basics are 6#12 in 1/2 ", 12#12 in3/4" and 20 #12 in 1" conduits all THHN/THWN wire
Outlets rated for 15 amps are commonly used on 20 amp lines. The reason being is that it will probably never be used with a total of 20 amps on it. 12/2 is commonly used for complete wiring of lights and outlets in homes.
It is against NEC to run Romex in conduit. There is no reason to and it compromises the temperature rating on the wire.
On a 20 amp circuit running 12/ 2 , I would not put more than 6 outlets. Pretty much a rule of thumb.
14/2 is rated for 15 amps only and only allowed on lighting circuits.
You can access certain parts of the NEC on line . Just Google specific questions and the links will pop up or direct you. Example... NEC rules for 12/2 Romex wire... that will give you a link...
Handyman, your answering a question over 4 years old, incorrectly.
The National Electric Code does not restrict Romex from being installed in conduit.
There is no "rule of thumb" of quantity of outlets on a residential general purpose circuit. There is no limit.
For those other than residential, the allowance is 180 VA (AC Watts), and can be up to 13 receptacles on a 20 amp receptacle circuit, or can be limited if the circuit is designed or intended for a specific appliance.
There is no Code that states a #14 wire can only be used for a lighting circuit.
And now, and may had been available back in 2006, the NFPA 70 National Electric Code is on line for review only at : NFPA.
I couldn't agree more on everything you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkrussell
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