Hello,

We have three sinks in our kitchen. The shutoff valves beneath them are causing problems (some leak, while others simply don't turn the water all the way off), so I'd like to replace them. And while I'm at it, I'd really like to replace them with the "full-bore" kind (the kind that only requires a quarter-turn to shut the water, instead of the five trillion clockwise turns currently required) if possible. The problem is, I don't know exactly what details to look for when I go to Home Depot (or wherever).

Attached is a picture of one of the current valves. I think the supply pipe is 1/2 inch, because under one of the other sinks, there is a T-fitting feeding a dishwasher that has "1/2" engraved on it. As you can see in the picture, there is some sort of T-fitting soldered into the pipe, with a threaded opening, and the valve itself is screwed into that opening. The sink supply tube is somehow connected to the top (I'm not sure - is that a compression fitting?) The sinks are all Delta ball-style faucets.

So to summarize, here's what I'd like to know: How should I describe this to the salesperson to get the right fittings; i.e. what is this valve called, what pipe sizes am I looking for, what type of connections am I looking for, watch should I watch out for to avoid getting the wrong product, etc? Also, is it indeed possible to get "full-bore" valves for this kind of thing?

Thanks in advance,
Moishe

Also, does anyone have any clue what that white crud all over the valve might be?

I don't know if you can replace this valve with a full bore valve.
What I would do is,
1st-ask a salesperson at Home Depot if the regular water control valves can be replaced with bore valves...

2nd-If no option for number 1 exists, I would just buy new valves and inspect my whole pipe system under every sink... Fix any leaks and other probs...

3rd-The crud on the valve is most likely from the mineral deposits (i.e. chlorine... ) The current valve has either leaked or had some water either drip on it or flow from the up most part of the pipe which connects to the valve...

That's mostly all what I could say as of now...

Hey Moishe,

The valve in question is a 1/2" FIPS,(female Iron Pipe Size) to 3/8" compression angle stop manufactured by Brasscraft. The white stuff on the threads looks like teflon pipe compound. I found a 1/4 turn ball valve angle stop for you. Check it out at; http://www.a-ball.com/adtemplate.asp?invky=6114007. A little pricey at $ 57 compared to a Brasscraft angle stop but t6his is what you asked for. Good luck Tom

Be very careful what you ask people at the big box stores or at least their answers. What you are wanting is called a full port ball valve. Ball valves have only been commonly available for about 25 years now, and many people haven't heard of them.

I am a big fan of ball valves having converted a small factory to ball valves in the early 80's. What I would do is pick up fairly cheap, readily available simple 1/2'' ball valves and try to find 1/2'' male pipe to 3/8'' compression 90 degree elbows. May have to go with a bushing and 3/8 to 3/8. Watch the 3/8. Could be OD instead of ID. Tom likely buys his supplies at a plumbing supply house where the people know better than to stick him with OD stuff. I am not sure the full port is that important in this application since you are going to neck down to 3/8'' at the outlet.

The chrome angle valves are very convenient in some applications and look nicer than a brass valve, but hidden under a sink, the ball valves leak much less.

Some of the crud is lime where the Teflon left a slow leak.

The old copper pipe won't line up right with a ball valve plus an elbow. Might be a good excuse to replace it with a flexible line. More time and money, but you could use the flex to skip the elbow. Now that I have thought about it, the better I like that.

Here's an interesting twist on this story: I was at Lowe's tonight, and wandered into the plumbing department quite by accident (I hadn't been planning to go there until later on). Realizing I was no longer in the Electrical department, I instinctively tried to orient myself somewhat by looking at the first item on the shelf where I was - and lo and behold! Guess what it was? A box of 1/2-inch FIPS to 3/4-inch (O/D) compression-fitting quarter-turn angle stops! And they only cost about $4 each!

Well, I added a couple of them to my shopping basket, and went merrily on my way. However, when I got home, the trouble started. As I am typing this, I have so far only managed to replace two of the valves with the new ones; however, the procedure took over an hour and basically made my life a living hell during that time. So I said to myself, "Self, you must be doing some things wrong. Ask the experts on the plumbing page for some advice before you flood the kitchen." So here I am.

First of all, how on earth do ordinary human beings unscrew the old valve body from the threaded pipe? It seemed to me like the teflon tape (or whatever the old valve had) had turned to cement! I practically had to sit down on the vise-grip, channel-locks, or whatever sacrificial victim I was using to grab the valve before it moved even a fraction of an inch! I even tried spraying it with WD-40 and giving it a couple of minutes to penetrate, but to no avail. What am I doing wrong? There's Got to be an easier way to unscrew the valve...

Secondly, when I finally finished and turned the water back on to test the installation, I discovered to my dismay that the 3/8 compression fittings were leaking out the top (i.e. from the "gap" betweenthe copper pipe and the compression nut). What am I doing wrong? I tried putting on more teflon tape, less teflon tape, tightening the fitting, loosening the fitting, all with little or no results - There is still a slow leak that, if left un-babysat long enough, will eventually start dripping. What can I do about this?

Finally, what are my options for replacing the supply tube with flexible pipe? i.e. First of all, what kind of flexible stuff do you guys recommend - braided steel, PE, etc? Secondly, will it work with the same compression fitting currently on the valve? And finally, one of the sinks' cold water supply has a saddle valve leeching into it, supplying a hot water dispenser (I think the tube feeding it is 1/8-inch I/D copper). How will I continue to supply it - I'm assuming saddle valves don't play nicely with flexible tubing, is that correct?

Confusedly yuors,
Moishe

Yeah. Taking old plumbing fittings apart and putting them back together is a pain. Try a hammer. Work your way around the outside of the threads on the valve. A few good smacks to the valve handle will help too. You do not want to bend stuff or crush it. You just want to flex the metal a little and break it loose from the old lime. With care, a propane torch will freed the valves without setting the house on fire.

I have bad luck putting old fittings back on too. Maybe Tom knows the trick. The compression joints shouldn't need any Teflon tape. They do need to be lined up good. Easiest thing is new flexible ones. Should be a selection of lengths of already made up ones near where the valves were. Just watch out. I recently discovered toilets have some weird thread slightly larger than the 1/2'' pipe faucets have. I was replacing the line to the toilet after it leaked when I tried to put the old one back on. I selected metal braid hoping it might resist any puppy* that ever chews on it. The plastic covered braid should be good enough under a sink.

*We have had young Labs in the house most of the time over the last 15 years.

Moishe,

Let's all get on the same page here about pipe sizes. Plumbers size their copper pipes by what they will carry,(ID) while AC people size theirs by what they will radiate,(OD). Thus, a 1/2" piece of copper to a plumber will translate to 5/8ths" to the AC guy.
Since you are doing plumbing.
Let me give you some copper pipe size conversions.
Plumbers pipe size to AC pipe size
1/8" ID copper ---------------------- 1/4" OD
1/4" ID " ----------------------- 3/8" OD
3/8" OD
3/8" ----------------------- 1/2" OD
1/2" ----------------------- 1/2" ----------------------- 5/8" ID " ID " OD
3/4" OD
You get the idea now?

If you have 1/2" ----------------------- 7/8" OD, ( and I never have run into any 3/4" FIPS to 3/4" raiser to them. No wonder you have leaks from the compression side. Let me give you some sound advice. If you plan on doing any plumbing purchase your supplies at a plumbing store where they will understand your problems and correct you if you try buy the wrong size parts. The big box guys are there to sell, not to advise.

" OD copper pipe) angle stops then your gonna have a problem connecting a 3/8ths"
There is. And it's called "There's GOTTA be an easier way to unscrew the valve...".

"bigger pipe wrench"gap"Secondly, when I finally finished and turned the water back on to test the installation, I discovered to my dismay that the 3/8 compression fittings were leaking out the top (i.e. from the "

Moshie, eventually you're going to realize that you were sold the wrong size stops. And YOU DO NOT EVER put pipe dope or teflon tape in a ferrule on a compression fitting and then tighten the compression nut.

" betweenthe copper pipe and the compression nut). What am I doing wrong? I tried putting on more teflon tape, less teflon tape, tightening the fitting, loosening the fitting, all with little or no results"
It will depend on the type of stops you end up using. Certainly not on the stops that you have.

And finally, one of the sinks' cold water supply has a saddle valve leeching into it, supplying a hot water dispenser (I think the tube feeding it is 1/8-inch I/D copper). How will I continue to supply it - I'm assuming saddle valves don't play nicely with flexible tubing, is that correct?

You're correct , a saddle valve won't work on flex tubing. If you wish to use flex supplies you will have to convert to copper at the stop and add a 1/8"finally, what are my options for replacing the supply tube with flexible pipe? i.e. First of all, what kind of flexible stuff do you guys recommend - braided steel, PE, etc? Secondly, will it work with the same compression fitting currently on the valve?" tubing and then convert back again to accept the flex supply.
You have your work cut out for you. Good luck, Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Let's all get on the same page here about pipe sizes.

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Yeah, sorry about that. I know about the different sizing methods; I just wasn't thinking straight (after all, it WAS 3AM :D ) and posted whichever I thought of first (ID or OD), thinking that everyone would automatically figure out the other one. Sorry!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

If you have 1/2" FIPS to 3/4" OD, ( and I never have run into any 3/4" OD copper pipe) angle stops then your gonna have a problem connecting a 3/8ths" raiser to them. No wonder you have leaks from the compression side.

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WHOOPS! Big. Bad. Typo.

I meant to type 3/8, NOT 3/4. Boy, typos sure can be misleading. Sorry!

The valves I got are indeed the correct ones, with a 3/8OD-1/4ID outlet. I know this to be true, because I compared them side-by-side with the old valves, and the relevant parts (i.e. nuts, compression rigs, etc.) are EXACTLY the same size. I merely typed it wrong in my post. Please forgive my stupidity, but like I said, it was 3AM and I probably wasn't thinking too coherently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Moshie, eventually you're gonna realize that you were sold the wrong size stops.

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Well, now that I cleared up the fact that I do have the right size, what do you suggest I do about the leaking?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

And YOU DO NOT EVER put pipe dope or teflon tape in a ferrule on a compression fitting and then tighten the compression nut.

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I guess I should have known better. The instructions that came with the valves said that I should NOT put pipe dope on the threads, but the plumbing book I was reading (Black and Decker "The Complete Guide to Home Plumbing" by Creative Publishers) specifically said to put teflon tape on the threads, so for some reason I decided to go by the book (literally). I wonder where the author got his misinformation from?

Anyway, if I unscrew the nut, remove the tape, and put the nut back, will things be better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

It will depend on the type of stops you end up using. Certainly not on the stops that you have.

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Well, now that I've cleared up the original confusion, my question remains: what do you recommend in terms of flexible stuff?

"what do you recommend in terms of flexible stuff?"


Here you go, take your choice. Tom
http://www.plumbingworld.com/flexes.html

Thanks for the recommendation, Tom. Just on more thing: the compression fittings. a) Why indeed are you not supposed to put pipe dope/teflon tape on the threads? b) If I remove the tape, do you think it will solve my "slow leak" problem?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PalmMP3

Thanks for the recommendation, Tom. Just on more thing: the compression fittings. a) Why indeed are you not supposed to put pipe dope/teflon tape on the threads? b)

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"Originally Posted by speedball1
And YOU DO NOT EVER put pipe dope or teflon tape in a ferrule on a compression fitting and then tighten the compression nut."

The manufacturer, Brasscraft, advises against putting anything between the ferrule,(that little brass ring) and its seat. Doing so leaves the brass valve body open to developing a crack and leaking. The extra volume added by pipe compound or teflon tape puts a strain on the brass valve body when you tighten the compression nut.
"If I remove the tape, do you think it will solve my "slow leak" problem?"
If your valves have a 1/4" compression outlet and the ferrule fits snugly over the 1/4" supply then all you should have to do is tighten the connection. If it has a small leak just crank down a little harder. If it still leaks then something's amiss with the size of the valves compression fitting. Good luck, Tom