I'm thinking of re-wiring our third floor apartment. This will probably amount to:
5 x main light switches
8 x duplex outlets
3 x GFI's
1 x 20 amp outlet for an airconditioner.
the old wire is knob and tube and is keeping me a wake at night... FIRE!

I have a 100 amp panel dedicated to this apartment in the basement with only 4 breakers in it at the moment. Do I run the indidvidual circuit wires up there (distance of around 120') to attic, or do I run a 60 amp wire say a 6/3 and feed a sub-panel then distribute from there?
what do I need in the way of wire sizing, breakers down in the basement and the attic and type and panel size any good web sites for this... ok I'm lazy.
What's the diameter of the 60 amp feed wire from the basement as it's going to be a hummer to get it up the side of the internal chimney up to the attic.
any additional info/advice would be appreciated.

thanks in advance.

Without answering any of your questions.. . If you live in an apartment, on the third floor, even if you redo all of your wiring, isn't it still going to keep you up at night if the two apartments below you are still fully wired in knob and tube?

One of my old churches was knob and tube.. . The entire building was poorly maintained. We blew fuses constantly overloading circuits, but the building went 100+ years with no fire.. . I've heard knob and tube is not hazardous at all, compared to what we may think, maybe they actually knew what they were doing back then.

And, personally, I would be reluctant to invest a lot of time and money into a place I am renting.. . I am assuming your landlord is reimbursing you?

TK will answer all of your actual questions I am sure. I'm no help.

CeilingFan makes a good point about renting this place. Plus, it's probably illegal for you to do any electrical work on it if you don't own it. So I'm assuming you own this apartment.

If it were at all feasible, I would use the basement panel to do nothing more than feed a new 100A sub panel in your apartment. Run all new circuits from there. This will require VERY large conductors to your apartment, but would be worth the effort IMO.

Yup, I own the building. I have recond the wire in the 1st floor so nows the time for the third floor. The tenant has been blowing the fuse in the panel a lot lately and because I am the worlds best landlord I thought it would be the right thing to provide a safe and efficient power source to this floor. ; )
The second floor will have to wait until the third floor blows off the top of the building!
Sorry no ceiling fans, but I do have a 1965 barbie doll for sale?

Wouldn't it be cheaper to do all floors at once?

I'm sure Cobra's answer is good, but I would make sure to get input from TK. TK is the man.

Second floor is mass difficult opening up ceilings etc. basement provides easy access to first floor no brainer and attic provides same to 3rd floor. 2nd floor has a reasonable amount of circuits already i.e 8 as opposed to the third floors 2... hence the reason why the tenant is blowing fuses. So that's the thinking behind it.

By the way donde est TK?

He should show up shortly, it takes him some time to cover everything. If you like, you can send him a private message, but don't ask him your question in the message, just direct him to this thread.

I do suggest you read Read This First post for some details.

For a 60 amp feeder at this length, I would use a #2 aluminum 4 wire feeder, called SER cable, check the local inspector to be sure it is allowed.

The cable is .973 inch diameter.

Use a 16 circuit subpanel at the apartment.

I assume a masonry chimney. Don't even think about going near a metal chimney.

If possible use a steel EMT conduit down next to the chimney to help sleeve and protect the cable.

To advice on the breakers, need to know what the outlets and circuits are for. Kitchen? Laundry? What rooms?

1 AC, got it.

K&T wiring is not as bad as thought, with proper cautions. Don't allow any insulation near it. Treat any splices or taps with respect, don't damage any of the wire insulation, and repair any exposed portions.

And most important, be sure each circuit is fused properly, most only 15 amp fuses or breakers allowed.

However, replace any as soon as practical, of course.

Tk,
Thanks for the insight. All points noted will check local code and act accordingly. Thanks for you time.
GFI's in kitchen (3) Pantry (1) Bathroom (2) the rest all Dual Duplex (4) point outlet and Duplex outlets. 20 amp for AC window unit? 15 amp for rest? Cable 14/2 for duplex and 12/3 for GFI's?. I'm only guessing here I'm sure you'll put me right. Thank you.

I sense your perception. Your welcome.

Using all #12 wire and 20 amp circuits is the trade standard, what with all the appliances we have. But not necessary, see below.

Assuming the 2008 NEC is adopted in your state:

#14 with 15 amp breakers is fine for bedrooms, living room, lighting circuits if cost savings is needed. Just no air conditioners, or heavy appliances.

Put two kit outlets on one 20 amp appliance circuit,
One kit and one pantry on one 20 amp appliance circuit,
One 20 amp circuit for bath outlets, lights and fans, or try to get light on nearby lighting circuit.
Dining rooms 20 amp appliance circuit.
Washer 20 amp appliance circuit.


Not sure what other rooms you have:

Bedrooms one Arc Fault breaker and circuit, 15 or 20 amp.
Living room one Arc Fault breaker and circuit 15 or 20 amp.


Try to mix general circuits in rooms so that if one circuit goes out, there is something left on.

Pick out the air conditioner and install the recommended circuit. Standard for 120 volt units is 20 amp with all #12. Some are 30 amp for larger areas. Or may be 240 volt 20 or 30 amp.


By the way, if you use the steel EMT conduit idea, be sure to use connectors and insulating bushings at each end.

#14-3 with ground is used for smoke detectors, all interconnected, one in each bedroom, one outside bedroom area, one per level. If CO source is near, use combination detectors.

This should get you going. Any other questions, get on back here with them.

Others here may think of more details and ideas.

Sorry for the delay your answers did not go unheeded. Thanks for all your input.
I am going to direct the supply cable fromm the 100 amp panel in the basement via the Soil stack pipe up to the 3rd floor attic and down into the top apartment for distribution as you have specified. Is there still a need for a steel conduit, if so can PVC suffice?