Hello:

I'm sometimes rather slow. Even though there's this thing called religion out there, I STILL thought you religious folk's were similar to me... But, I come to find out that we're not really in the same ballpark - and maybe not on the same planet. That surprises me at my ripe old age.

My question is thus: I think we inherently understand right from wrong WITHOUT religion. I always thought religious people thought the same way... But, noooooo.

You people think that we'd still be robbing and raping and killing each other if religion didn't teach you that doing that stuff is wrong.

Is that really true? You'd be doing bad stuff IF you didn't have your church to tell you otherwise?? Really??

excon

But why do you understand right from wrong ?

1. teachings of your parents
2. teachings at school
3. rules at work
4 and your favorite, laws of our government

So if you were raised in a culture where it was OK, to kill the other polictical party, then there is no wrong to you to do that.

If you were raised in a culture where you could kill and eat the neighboring tribe people, then that is not wrong to you.

America as we know it, ( regardless of the cries that it is not ) was formed basically by religious people and often it was society moving into an area that was "wild" that brought more organised religion and with it, the morals.

Why don't you throw down the next pretty girl you meet and have sex with her ( beyond our ages excon) who is telling you it is wrong. There is a moral code that tells us we can not act on our animal instints.

I mean I would love to go about two houses down from me and blow those people away, they have a crack house going. No real lost to society if they were wiped off the face of the earth to me. And I believe I could most likely do it and get away with it. So it is not really the laws and criminal issues, it is the moral issue that says I can not just kill someone.

the fact is, regardless if you believe in religion or not, you have been indoctrined into a religious moral code by just living in most of society in the US.

Now tha society is getting less and less moral as time goes by, And as it does, we will see those that have less built in values that tell them right and wrong.

Well said...

Hello Padre:

That's today. I certainly get that my upbringing stems from religion. But, civilization and our concept of God is only about 5,000 years old. We, as modern humans, are 150,000 years old.

My question is about the people who were hanging around just before they found out about God, let's say 10,000 years ago. Did those people know right from wrong?

Or do you think we just got started around 5,000 years ago? That would certainly offer a convenient answer.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Padre:

That's today. I certainly get that my upbringing stems from religion. But, civilization and our concept of God is only about 5,000 years old. We, as modern humans, are 150,000 years old.

My question is about the people who were hanging around just before they found out about God, let's say 10,000 years ago. Did those people know right from wrong?

Or do you think we just got started around 5,000 years ago? That would certainly offer a convenient answer.

excon

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So-----, if you believe that man has a 150,000 year history, how can you know what morals (or lack thereof) they may have had back then? We have modern history of tribes practicing cannibalism and other things not considered moral by most people. The point is that humans do not have any "instinct" for right and wrong. Conscience is a child of training. Not too long ago, slavery was considered as perfectly acceptable. It took some teaching to change that, and most of the impetus in the Western world came from Christian religion, as opposed to, say, Druidism.

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?

From CS Lewis "Mere Christianity" former atheist , Christian Apologist.

Ex Con , he agrees with you about an inherent "moral law."

I know this is addressed to the religious but I'm going to counter point because well just because.

The church gets it's moral laws from society, not the other way around. Hence why the laws of the church have changed over time, if the laws were dictated by god, they would never change and the church would still find it perfectly acceptable to have slaves and such. Even laws such as thou shalt not kill, the church finds it acceptable when society feels it is acceptable such as a soldier killing an enemy or a man protecting his family from an attacker.

All creatures have acceptable ways that they are expected to act around each other. Evolution gives us that. If any creature that required sexual reproduction killed every member of it's species that it came in contact with it would die off and not reproduce and the genes that cause it to do that would die off as well. Humans just make thinks more complicated cause we have big brains and time to spend thinking about these things.

excon
Secularism and religion are not mutually exclusive of each other; the interplay of religion and politics has been and remains a constant. There is no way to separate secular and religious values.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

There is no way to separate secular and religious values.

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Hello again, DC:

Even though the people I'm talking about had NO religious values - because they were around before religion??

Okee doakee.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

You people think that we'd still be robbing and raping and killing each other if religion didn't teach you that doin that stuff is wrong.

Is that really true? You'd be doing bad stuff IF you didn't have your church to tell you otherwise???? Really???

excon

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

The point is that humans do not have any "instinct" for right and wrong.

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More of a fear of the consequences for one's actions that govern behavior. Since church, morals, and laws of society are intertwined many people may believe the Church to be responsible while others place the credit elsewhere.

So, in the absence of those constructs our society would be vastly different. It takes a consensus determinantion of acceptability and society finds it convenient to place the policing of that consensus under a central authority...

Though it can have positive outcomes there also can be many negative outcomes considering such events as the Salem Witch Trials and/or The Holocaust

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Originally Posted by michealb

The church gets it's moral laws from society, not the other way around. Hence why the laws of the church have changed over time, if the laws were dictated by god, they would never change and the church would still find it perfectly acceptable to have slaves and such. Even laws such as thou shalt not kill, the church finds it acceptable when society feels it is acceptable such as a soldier killing an enemy or a man protecting his family from an attacker.

All creatures have acceptable ways that they are expected to act around each other. Evolution gives us that. If any creature that required sexual reproduction killed every member of it's species that it came in contact with it would die off and not reproduce and the genes that cause it to do that would die off as well. Humans just make thinks more complicated cause we have big brains and time to spend thinking about these things.

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My name is NK and I endorse this point of view.

Excon
As far back as 10 thousand B.C.E. history is abundant with carvings and writings reflecting people's respect and adoration for the Sun. The early civilizations personified the Sun and the Stars and created elaborate myths about this solar messiah the (Horus) SUN and his enemy known as Set and Set was the personification of the darkness or night. Coming from the concept of "dark vs. light" or "good vs. evil" is one of the most wide-spread mythological dualities ever known. If we are going to speculate beyond what is known it sounds more probable that myth has been with us from the very beginning of the evolution of man.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, DC:

Even though the people I'm talking about had NO religious values - because they were around before religion???

Okee doakee.

excon

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Hey Excon,

Why do you assume that religion wasn't practiced among the first humans?
As I believe humans have known the Almighty from the first human,things just got distorted along the way and different people took on different practices and beliefs got mixed up with falsehood.

Why do you think the basic commandments are reflected in most religions the same?Coincidence? I don't think so... it is from the same source.

Humans have a way of distorting facts to fit their own views and as people spread around the earth and started their own tribes,towns,nations and continents the struggles for power have made them use whatever methods they could to control their own people into willingly or unwillingly follow their mixed up views,forgetting that the laws and morals are not to be judged on earth by humans alone but by a much higher source, from where the morals were first sent down.

As a believer I am sure my views differ from many others,but I stand by what I say that humans knew the morals from their very first step on earth... but then who can prove one or another for a non believer to accept it as fact.

:)

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Originally Posted by firmbeliever

As a believer I am sure my views differ from many others,but I stand by what I say that humans knew the morals from their very first step on earth.....but then who can prove one or another for a non believer to accept it as fact.

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So how would you explain how many non-believers have the same or better morals?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So how would you explain how many non-believers have the same or better morals?

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Hey NK,

I know this is not going to be proof enough for you,but I will explain our belief on this matter.
We believe that the Almighty drew forth from the loins of the children of Adam, their descendants and then made them testify concerning themselves. (Saying): 'Am I not your Lord' They said, 'Yes, we testify to it.'Hence each soul is aware of their creator on some level and aware of the moral laws which we are supposed to follow.

So whether we are believers or not,it is within us to follow or not.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So how would you explain how many non-believers have the same or better morals?

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Now who is judging who?

And whose "morals" are you judging by? :confused:

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Now who is judging who?

And whose "morals" are you judging by? :confused:

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Not judging, just responding to this post.

So once all the Christian churches accept homosexuality do you think they will come back and say that they were moral leaders that tried to get equal rights for all people regardless of sexual preference or do you think they will come back and say they were wrong and that the morals of society were right?

Of course the church will be able to say they tried to protect the equal rights of people regardless of sexual preference... if they feel that it is to their benefit to say it... look at the cover-up with the priests and their preferences... that policy lasted for years...

Which reenforces excon's point, the non churched can tell right from wrong.

And the Church in the priest case is and was wrong. It does not diminish the message of the Bible, "for all have sinned..."