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This has never sat right with me and it was drilled into my head when I was in catholic school. Why would God punish us all from what the first two people on earth did. Why does everyone come in to life with a sin. Just doesn't seem logical. To me that story of original sin is a scare tactic to get people to baptist a child and make them part of this religion. So what's the deal why are we all punished at birth from what the first two people on earth did.
I agree with you. It is a sad thing that many people fear God. God would like us to be friends with him. Instead, we are taught to cower before any and all Deity as if it were a punishing parent. A father figure who is angry and demands that all of us suffer because He has been angered. People can and do hold stupid grudges like that. But a God?
When Adam and Eve symbolically ate from the tree of knowledge, they discovered the duality of this world. They then understood that they were separate from God. They had not been aware of it before. Before they "disobeyed" they were "perfect." The question is why? Why were they told not to indulge? Why did they try it anyway? I believe that feeling the separation was necessary. Otherwise, God would not have put opportunity in their path.
Sadly people expect things to fit into the idea that they think is right. All though the bible, ( we can leave the old testement out of it, if you would like) Even in Pauls writing we are told that all people are sinners, and that none are saved without forgiveness of their sins.
We also see in the old testment that God's punishment is sometimes continued to several generations. We even see God's anger and punishment being applied to an entire town or nation because of the basic evil of the overall nation.
I may not like it, I may not think God should work that way, but it realllyis not up to me. God has given us warnings and has given us a way to get out of that punishment. To the early church before Christ, they were given a procedure to get forgiveness every year at a sacrifice
For man today, he has been given Christ to be their sacrifice.
So God has always either directly forgave man as he did in the very early part of the bible and mans history, or he always had a procedure that allowed man to decide if he wanted to return back to God.
God could have merely forced us all to do his will, but he wants those to follow him that want to, that is why there is free choice. Man has always paid the price for evil in others life, If a killer kills a husband, the widow and her children pay the price for his sin, Man in WWII paid the price for the evil and sin of Hilter, how many in the US suffered loss because of the evil of this one man.
So yes, we all suffer because of the evil of those that came before us.
You do not have to accept the teachings of original sin. You say that was drilled into you growing up Catholic. Well, surprise to you - it is also taught in Protestant religions too. However, it is not found in Jewish theology or in Islam teachings.
Original sin refers to the fallen state of humanity. Now you can choose to believe that or not. Maybe you want to read the writings of Augustine of Hippo, who believed original sin was the effect of the total of "world sin" brought via Adam and Eve's sin against God. Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You are an adult now and can decide these matters for yourself. If do not agree with your upbringing, that is only for you to decide. Attempt to make your life a growth experience with the Lord. If you do not agree with the Catholic Church's teachings, then search for a church who does teach according to the Bible - searching for a church that teaches what you want to hear is not going to get you very far.
There are Christian religions ( LDS) that do not believe that we are born into sin. From the LDS articles of faith " WE believe that man will be punished for their own sins and not for Adams transgressions." We do believe though, that we will all sin and thus need the gift of the Resurrected Savior in order for us to return to our Heavenly Father. WE have the gift of agency and will choose at times to live contrary to GOd's plan and so we will have consequences for those choices. I also believe that GOd loves all of his children and truly wants them all to return to him.
I cannot speak to what you were taught in Catholic school, but what you have described is not the Biblical position on the doctrinal of the original sin. The Biblical position (and I will provide scripture references if you need them) is that when Adam and Eve sinned, our nature changed and we gained an orientation towards sin, a desire to sin. As we see in scripture, God said that the heart of man is evil continually (Gen 6:5). The heart represents the innermost desires of man, and our desire is to things which are sinful. Thus the doctrine of the original sin is that through the original sin of Adam, all men and indeed all nature changed from a holy nature to a sinful nature which gravitates towards sin. Creation fell.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
That does not mean that we are born with sin or punished for sin that we did not commit. Absolutely not. What is does mean is that each of us has the desire to sin, and has made our own choice to sin, and has sinned (Rom 3:23). That is why today we find that porn on internet is more popular than Bible studies - the orientation of men is towards sin. We are held responsible for the sins that we have committed. That is why Jesus had to come as God in the flesh, the perfect man, to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins.
Paul describes it like this - in our sin nature, we are slaves to sin, and we can only be set free of that slavery to sin, but submitting ourselves to Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and then allowing ourselves to become slaves to His righteousness.
I don't believe in a lot of Catholic doctorine.
I look at it more like we were born into this world of sin so sort of by association
we are IN sin. Sort of like disease, if we are in a room that is contaminated we can not be totally free from the contamination. We have it within ourselves to grow up living a life of good or choosing bad because we have sin nature, but it doesn't mean we are sin punished at birth.
Hope this makes sense.
(American Standard Version)
American Standard Version (ASV)
Copyright © 1901 Public Domain
Yes original sin is in the bible, plus sin being based on to another generation is part of every Christian religions if they accept the 10 commandments and what the bible says
Exodus 20:4-7
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Ps 51:5 Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conveive me
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spriit is spirit
Eph4:22 Put off concerning the former converstation, the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts
Gen 8:21 The imagination of mans's heart is evil from his youth
Matt 27: 25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. *** In this the descendants of Ham ore the curse of their ancestors sin
Eccl 7:20 Thre is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not
Is 64:6 We are all as an unclen thing and all our righteousness are as filthy rags
But yes you can easily find a religion that will teach what you want, since man would prefer to go to churches that teath what they want to hear over all the truths in the bible
Original sin is not a Catholic doctrine ( OK it is but not just theirs)Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
it is a Orthodox, a Anglican, a lutheran and I am sure a dozen more Christian churches, It is more accepted in all of Christianity, except for the newer churches of the last few 100 years that have developed their own teachings
And before one says Lutheran or other protestants don't, I am sitting with the small catechism of the lutheran church which I used for all of my documentation of bible verses. I can even give you page numbers it comes form where they teach original sin.
I know I am not saying I do not believe original sin but what I meant was I don't believe it quit ACCORDING TO the Catholics explanation.
Not sure what you call a Catholic explanation, thiers come from the bible
Let's have a look at these passages:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
This is not referring to the original sin. Note that it says that the children are punished for the up to the 4th generation of those who "hate me". Here are the problems with using this to support the belief that we are all held guilty for Adam's sin:Quote:
Exodus 20:4-7
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
1) Using this, you would be saying that the sin nature is not passed on to children of Christians (since Christians don't hate God. That is contrary to scripture, and indeed contrary to every orthodox understanding of the doctrine of the Original Sin (sin nature).
2) This does NOT say that the sin is passed on, but rather that the children are punished, or in effect that the children suffer as a result of the sin up to the fourth generation. Look at the children and grandchildren of people involved in drug abuse for example for an example of how this plays out in practice.
So in context, this verse does not support your position regarding the passing on of the actual sin of Adam as opposed to the sin nature.
Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned, so we know his mother sinned. This says nothing about the person being held responsible for Adam's sin.Quote:
Ps 51:5 Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conveive me
John 3:4-8Quote:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spriit is spirit
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
In context this is speaking about what needs to be done to be saved. Again, nothing here about being held responsible for the sin of Adam.
This is speaking about lusts, which is the sinful nature, the sin orientation, which agrees which what I said, but says nothing about us being held to pay for the sin of Adam.Quote:
Eph4:22 Put off concerning the former converstation, the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.
Gen 8:21 The imagination of mans's heart is evil from his youth
Matt 27:22-26Quote:
Matt 27: 25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
22 Pilate said to them, "What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all said to him, "Let Him be crucified!" 23 Then the governor said, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they cried out all the more, saying, "Let Him be crucified!" 24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it." 25 And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children." 26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.
NKJV
In context, this is an angry, anti-Christian mob asking for Christ's blood to be put upon them, not a declaration of doctrine from God, nor does it speak of us being held responsible for the sin of Adam.
Curses are often placed upon persons or nations for what has been done, but again, that goes back to the comments that I made above ion Exodus 20. Let's us also not forget that these curses are broken by receiving Christ as Saviour, but the passing on of the sin nature from generation to generation which is the topic at hand, will continue until the return of Christ because it is our flesh which is corrupt.Quote:
Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. *** In this the descendants of Ham ore the curse of their ancestors sin
Again, this is the same as Romans 3:23, but says nothing about us being responsible to pay the price for Adam's sin.Quote:
Eccl 7:20 Thre is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not
Is 64:6 We are all as an unclen thing and all our righteousness are as filthy rags
The doctrine of the sins nature if true, but none of us will be called to pay the price for Adam's sin, however because of the corruption of the flesh that resulted from his sin, we all have sinned and will be held accountable for our own sin. That is why we must receive Christ as Saviour.
If it was only Adam's sin that we were paying the price for, then all that would be necessary would be for the blood of Christ to pay the price for Adam's sin and we would all be saved.
I do not dispute the Biblical doctrine of the original sin corrupting all nature and making us salves to sin, but scripture does not support the believe that all men are guilty of the sins of their ancestors. Indeed quite the opposite, for example:
Deut 24:16
16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
NKJV
Paul's teaching on the doctrine of the original Sin:
Rom 5:12-21
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NKJV
Note that through one man and one sin, sin entered the world, and through sin, death entered the world. Yet is is not sin which is is passed down, but the effect of sin, which is death, which comes through the corruption of nature. It is as a result of this, that even without sin, death is in our flesh, and death in this context speaks both of physical and spiritual death because as a result of the sin nature that we inherited, we are slaves to sin, as Paul goes on to explain in Romans 6:
Rom 6:16-23
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV
When we are born, we have the sin nature and are slaves to sin, and thus we all sin (Romans 3:23). But we have the freedom to come to Christ, accept His free gift on the cross, and to become slaves to righteousness by submitting ourselves to His Lordship as our Saviour.
We therefore sin, and are held responsible for our own sin which results from us being slaves to sin, due to the sin nature inherited since the original sin of Adam. God is not unjust and does not hold us responsible for the sins of others (Deut 14:16), but we are fully responsible for our own sin. And because all have sinned, we are all on our way to hell and have all condemned ourselves if we have not received Christ as our Saviour.
John 3:17-19
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
NKJV
Christ's sacrifice on the cross breaks the curse of sin.
Yes, after they have accepted Christ and are baptised, they are forgiven, does not mean that the flesh is not still of the world and contains sin.
And since sin transfers though the father ( that is why Jesus was born of Mary as a virgin, thus the transfer of sin did not take place)
Baptism is not essential for salvation (but that is a different topic :) ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I cannot agree to that since I see no scriptural validation that sin transmits from parent to child. The sin nature, on the other hand, I do agree is transmitted.Quote:
And since sin transfers though the father ( that is why Jesus was born of Mary as a virgin, thus the transfer of sin did not take place)
The Doctrine of *Original Sin* is closely associated with St. Augustine of Hippo who was an influential theologian in the fourth century. For a complete biography written in layman's terms of St. Augustine, check out Wikipedia from which this snippet is taken:
"Augustine taught that Original Sin was transmitted by concupiscence (roughly, lust), weakening the will[20] and making humanity a massa damnata[20] (mass of perdition, condemned crowd). In the struggle against Pelagianism, Augustine's teaching was confirmed by many councils, especially the Second Council of Orange.[20] The identification of concupiscence and Original Sin, however, was challenged by Anselm and condemned in 1567 by Pope Pius V.[20]
Augustine's formulation of the doctrine of original sin has substantially influenced both Catholic and Reformed (that is, Calvinist) theology. His understanding of sin and grace was developed against that of Pelagius.[21] Expositions on the topics are found in his works On Original Sin, On the Predestination of the Saints, On the Gift of Perseverance and On Nature and Grace.
Original sin, according to Augustine, consists of the guilt of Adam which all human beings inherit. As sinners, human beings are utterly depraved in nature, lack the freedom to do good, and cannot respond to the will of God without divine grace. Grace is irresistible, results in conversion, and leads to perseverance.[21] Augustine's idea of predestination rests on the assertion that God has foreordained, from eternity, those who will be saved. The number of the elect is fixed.[21] God has chosen the elect certainly and gratuitously, without any previous merit (ante merita) on their part.
The Roman Catholic Church considers Augustine's teaching to be consistent with free will.[22] He often said that any can be saved if they wish.[22] While God knows who will be saved and who won't, with no possibility that one destined to be lost will be saved, this knowledge represents God's perfect knowledge of how humans will freely choose their destinies.[22]... "
Best wishes,
We inherited their sin as a result and it was imputed to the rest of us. It may not seem "fair" by mortal human standards but we have to remember that we are dealing with God's standards here, not our own. And because we are sinners it is impossible for us to fully understand or think like God, which is precisely why so much of what God does seems "unfair" or "illogical."
"GOD" doesn't punish anyone, that is something created long ago by people who didn't understand the nature of reality and the politics of the time that wanted to control the masses by eradicating free thought and having control over the populace at large.Quote:
Originally Posted by spitvenom
Ive been alive for quite a while and I have thought of these religious things. The reason so many things in the bible sound "illogical" is that so much of the bible was stricken away or not added, because of the political emperors of the past.
Ive thought about it and as I am a hypnotist and past life regressionist and I have seen anyone go back into their past lives, whether they are religious, believing in nothing, or believe in something between the two, they've all had past lives. I think that the phrase that "Noone is born without sin" is a reference to reincarnation of course.
How else would it make sense that a baby be considered sinful when its not had time to sin? Lol Obviously it's a reference to the lives before, and that this child while innocent in its OWN body, has a soul that contains all the memories of all its journeys its been on in the past.. or possibly in parallel realities.
BTW mathematicians have just proven that parallel worlds exist, did you hear about that? This is the first time they have been able to prove what was a theory by scientists, using math.
Of course people aren't being punished at birth from what "two people" who were supposedly the only two people on the Earth did. No one even knows if it happened on this planet. They weren't the only two people anyway. Remember Adam had a GF/wife before.. lilith, and there was an entire city near Eden. Why is it that Adam can have sex with someone beforehand? Well Eve might have as well, these were male dominated times you know.
Anyway Im not sure if you are serious w/ your questions or if you are simply writing to see what you get. If something DOES NOT MAKE SENSE... do not make it a belief, that is a good way to go through life. Consider what you know and use that to piece together this very fragmented set of ideas from days gone.. but do not use some edited references and take them to heart because it will only sully your own life.
Yes we've had past lives before, I should know that Ive seen it every time and I have regressed and helped enough people, and its hard to believe in 2007 anyone is having these issues with understanding but I think it's that people are passing on their beliefs to their children and never allowing them the freedom of thought and to explore their own minds themselves. Some say "They can make up their own minds when they grow up" but by that time they are so conditioned to not question that they don't bother questioning at all.
It's a good thing that you are questioning because that is a mind that is truly GOD LIKE..
The God concept would never have a mind that only accepts beliefs from others without question because the "God concept" is MULTIFACETED so how is that possible? A multifaceted mind explores.
God would want proof in various different ways. She/He/It would be exploring and creating and comparing. That's what it means to be so strong and fearless.
For someone to think they "know it all" without any research whatsoever and compelling debates.. that is something left to those that just are too fear based to evolve and have been relegated to what was left behind. That's why they are fighting in the mid east so much.. its male dominated,and everyone wants to kill each other based on their religious beliefs, THIS IS LAUGHABLE as nothing that is spiritual would ever involve any kind of VIOLENCE to animal or humankind!!
I've known many people who become atheists because religionists turn them off so much, and that's just the opposite of being religious, they really haven't made any strides in their thinking.. they have gone from believing what they are told, to believing in nothing and not venturing to find out anything either.
Minds are like parachutes they only function when they are open.
Oh, sorry, I forgot to answer your question, spitvenom.
Catholicism/Christianity is faith/belief... it is not fact or knowledge. I gave up Catholicism when I was 18, and I am leaving life as a happy atheist!
Basically I mean what Tj3 said. Catholics make original sin sound more like you are doomed IN sin. I believe it is more that we have a sin nature and we are not born with a spiritual connection with God. I don't believe original sin means it is like you are born punished and hopeless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
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