Brian McLaren, an evangelical pastor and author of "A New Kind of Christian" writes:
"Sadly, for centuries at a time in too many places to count, the Christian religion has downplayed, misconstrued, or forgotten the secret message of Jesus entirely. Instead of being about the kingdom of God coming to earth, the Christain religion has too often become preoccupied with abandoning or escaping the earth and going to heaven. Too often its members have forgotten the teachings of Jesus about making peace and turning the other cheek and crossing boundaries to serve peopleformerly considered 'outsiders'.
We have, instead, launched or baptized wars, prepetuated racism, and defended an unjust status quo. We have betrayed the message that the kingdom of God is available for all, beginning with the least and the last and the lost----and instead have believed and taught that the kingdom of God is available for the elite, beginning with the correct and the clean and the powerful.
.........our music has too often been discordant, shallow, or played...without feeling and passion.....And whenever that happens, our audiences do exactly as they should: they ignore us and our message, or they turn from us in boredom or disgust."

What say ye... has the message been distorted by the very ones commissioned with it's dissemination??

Well... there are some teachers and preachers who have distorted the message of Jesus - yes. That is easily proven. Does that invalidate the message of Jesus? NO. Do you have to believe every evangelist, every minister, every priest and pastor out there? NO. We are responsible for living according to the teachings of Christ; not man, not a church, not a demonination. I am sure that is why so many people, who once professed to be a Christian cannot tolerate Christianity - so much has been done in the name of Jesus that is false and wrong and just plain sinful.

But what are you going to do? Go hide under a rock? We cannot look for a person to instill our passion for living for Christ. If we do, we will fail - not just ourselves but the Lord's plan for our lives.

Yeah, I have been saying for a few years that Christianity has become more "pie in the sky" everything is fine and motivational speaking than any Biblical teachings.
I think it is for a few reasons
A. nobody wants to hear "hell and brimstone" type teachings
B. they want to 'fit' into modern society to attract more people
And be 'Politically Correct' so they don't offend 'non-believers.
C. they are following the Televanglist's style.
D. People have rationalized 'If God is a loving God... ' to the point that
They can only understand God from man's opinions.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Yeah, I have been saying for a few years that Christianity has become more "pie in the sky" everything is fine and motivational speaking than any Biblical teachings.
I think it is for a few reasons
A. nobody wants to hear "hell and brimstone" type teachings
B. they want to 'fit' into modern society to attract more people
and be 'Politically Correct' so they don't offend 'non-believers.
C. they are following the Televanglist's style.
D. People have rationalized 'If God is a loving God....' to the point that
they can only understand God from man's opinions.

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The problem is not, so much, that many Christian leaders have abandoned Biblical teachings, but they have relied on too many subjective misinterpretations of Scriptture to lambast non-believers, and have forgotten Jesus prime message, that the kingdom of GOD is NOW... we can all be a part of it NOW... we don't have to wait for that 'pie in the sky when we die'... we can transform our world NOW and make it the kind of all-inclusive world that IS (and MUST BE) the kingdom of God, not just a Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim enclave. So long as we keep our eyes firmly fixed on a celestial reward (and nothing else)... we lose sight of the needs of our brothers and sisters in THIS world. I believe it was the German mystic Meister Eckhart who said: "until we can see the face of Jesus in EVERY man, we will never know Jesus".
I can only paraphrase: Until we can see Jesus in the face of our 'enemies' we can never further the kingdom of God on earth, as Jesus planned.

Yes - in general.

Prosperity is quite different compared to reading how the early Christians were and what some underwent in the book of Acts.


However; that being said, there are churches that help those in need - look at the response to Katrina. Salvation Army is another Christian organization that cannot be faaulted for losing the way.

And I know, my local megachurch stood by the families of a local plane crash, as well as hold food and clothing drives. One member donated the car of his recently deceased wife to another church member, single mother. So there are reflections of the Holy Spirit, in today's churches.

What I meant by 'pie in the sky' was both Christians wanting the easy fluff answers for NOW as well as the when we die part.
I see what you are saying and I agree. That bothers me too. I see so many Christians go to Church and the preacher preaches to be open to the needs of 'others less fortunate' and if the preacher doesn't take up a collection for soandso who lost everything they don't see anybody's needs. They leave Church and run to the Buffet and stuff their bellies then to Wal Mart and waste money on some frivolous thing they don't need. If they do happen to see someone in need they 'leave it to somebody else'.
Then if they DO help somebody with a need and don't happen to charge them for the favor they make them the Poster child of what great work they did. Usually they pass up the helping the person that has a true need to help the person with the need that they will get more recognition and congratulations on helping.
Then they wonder why the people they ignore leave the Church.

I still say it is a largely a result of today's instant, convenient and popularity mentality for the most part.

Then look at the millions of dollars in some of those buildings. Sure, they are beautiful but does that make them holy? Not just picking on Christian churches, have seen many temples built like mansions. Who does that serve?

One thing I have noticed about some of the demoninations - the way they minister to single and divorced parents, as well as divorced people. It does not fit into their pattern of accepted. That is why I quit going to church - I stick out like a sore thumb and was even told that in "no way" could I talk about my struggles concerning being a single parent. Now I know that was not Christ speaking through my former pastor. That was just my pastor and the board and deacons. I could have used that as an excuse to turn my back on my beliefs but that would have been just as bad.

I won't read past the first sentence. What he says, about Christianity in general, is absolutely ridiculous. Certainly I would agree to what he says about some Christians and/or some organizations, but not Christianity in general.

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Originally Posted by RickJ

I won't read past the first sentence. What he says, about Christianity in general, is absolutely rediculous. Certainly I would agree to what he says about some Christians and/or some organizations, but not Christianity in general.

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Rick:
What do you refer to when you state "Christianity in general"... Protestant Christianity, Roman Catholic Christianity, Orthodox Christianity... Fundamentalist Christianity, non-denominational Christianity? Are you not 'generalizing' Christianity in the same way that you accuse McLaren of doing? And to what purpose?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

what I meant by 'pie in the sky' was both Christians wanting the easy fluff answers for NOW as well as the when we die part.
I see what you are saying and I agree. That bothers me too. I see so many Christians go to Church and the preacher preaches to be open to the needs of 'others less fortunate' and if the preacher doesn't take up a collection for soandso who lost everything they don't see anybody's needs. They leave Church and run to the Buffet and stuff their bellies then to Wal Mart and waste money on some frivolous thing they don't need. If they do happen to see someone in need they 'leave it to somebody else'.
Then if they DO help somebody with a need and don't happen to charge them for the favor they make them the Poster child of what great work they did. Usually they pass up the helping the person that has a true need to help the person with the need that they will get more recognition and congradulations on helping.
Then they wonder why the people they ignore leave the Church.

I still say it is a largely a result of today's instant, convenient and popularity mentality for the most part.

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You make some salient points. The irony is that, in the case of Katrina, the most visible and most quick responders to the tragedy were the Mormons, and the Catholic Church, neither of which is credited with being truly "Christian" by many fundamentalist Christians.

But the real issue is is not what each group may think of each other, but what the groups teach, and all groups teach of the love and basically the salvation though Jeuss Christ, all teach of a repentance and a baptism,
They may differ in at what age, and how it is done, but the actual real teachings are basically the same.

In the mid 70's we took the small catechism of the Lutheran church and the Catholic church, they were word for word the same ( except for one word) That is how close their actual teachings were at that time.
But the members of each church would have never believed or accepted it.

But the world has always had preachers who would preach to the popular ideas. It was warned in the bible 2000 years ago, and is still true today.

But in the end, if you throw out the smoke and mirrors, get rid of the dance groups and the 20 piece bands in almost all of them, you still have the basics of faith, in that there is always a true bond if they want it or not.

** don't forget the Baptist, they had a large group after Katrina also.

I know MANY Christians and Christian churches in my area and heard of some from other areas that helped with Katrina but they went to help Mississippi Katrina victims because they saw that New Orleans was going to end up being a political thing and they wanted to avoid that. Louisana got all the media attention and nobody saw how bad Mississippi had it except for the ones that choose to help there instead.

I feel much of our leadership has utterly lost their way. A PCUSA leader made the statement ''We don't need people hanging on a cross and dripping blood.'' Sorry about that. Christ's atoning work on the cross is the only hope for a sinner like me. The PCUSA and the other mainline denominations are all about various liberal ideas that they see as good works. They have forgotten Christ's death on the cross and the difference between the church and the UN. Due to personal taste and the worship style the PCUSA congregation I was a part of for 30 years has adopted, I am leaving them and going to the Friends. They have their problems, too, but I can enjoy the music, it is close by, and the people are nice. I looked at some more ''evangelic'' churches. They are too hung up on how God choose to create the earth, the time table of the second coming, baptism by immersion, and other things I regard as non essential.

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Originally Posted by Tertullian

Rick:
What do you refer to when you state "Christianity in general"....Protestant Christianity, Roman Catholic Christianity, Orthodox Christianity....Fundamentalist Christianity, non-denominational Christianity? Are you not 'generalizing' Christianity in the same way that you accuse McLaren of doing? And to what purpose?

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You generalized in saying simply "the Christian religion has downplayed, misconstrued, or forgotten the secret message of Jesus entirely"

... so I stand by what I initially said.

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Originally Posted by RickJ

You generalized in saying simply "the Christian religion has downplayed, misconstrued, or forgotten the secret message of Jesus entirely"

...so I stand by what I initially said.

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Sorry to have to disagree, but "I" generalized NOTHING... I merely quoted the summation of a respected author, theologian, and CHRISTIAN pastor whose qualifications to instruct I find impeccable. For you to pass it off as MY generalizing simply begs the question. You will find the same type of 'summation' in a vast number of contemporary theologians from Hans Kung to John Shelby Spong to Matthew Fox and John Dominic Crosson. In my experience... where there is smoke there is fire. Is that not also YOUR experience.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

But the real issue is is not what each group may think of each other, but what the groups teach, and all groups teach of the love and basicly the salvation though Jeuss Christ, all teach of a repentance and a baptism,
They may differ in at what age, and how it is done, but the actual real teachings are basicly the same.

In the mid 70's we took the small catechism of the Lutheran church and the Catholic church, they were word for word the exact same ( except for one word) That is how close thier actual teachings were at that time.
But the members of each church would have never beleived or accepted it.

But the world has always had preachers who would preach to the popular ideas. It was warned in the bible 2000 years ago, and is still true today.

But in the end, if you throw out the smoke and mirrors, get rid of the dance groups and the 20 piece bands in almsot all of them, you still have the basics of faith, in that there is always a true bond if they want it or not.

** don't forget the Baptist, they had a large group after Katrina also.

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Authentic faith ALWAYS culminates in action, especially in action toward peace and social justice. It it does not, what matter that two or three or thirty of the 3,000 Christian denominations agree in their teaching?? And what can be offered a seeker who tires to fathom the 'mystery' inherrent in either monophysitism, or Jesus as both TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN?? And what of those who simply cannot get their reason around the idea of a Triune God?? Do we insist that 'BELIEF' countermands concern? Do we condemn to hell any who wish to find God in today's world and not in some closed Scriptures or archaic rituals?? Do we not need to establish a 'common ground' Christianity... one that is NOT elitist, NOT sectarian, NOT denominational... and which avoids the taint of 'contemporary-hail-fellow-well-met' cultism.

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. :) If 'preaching to the popular ideas' can lead men and women to God... who are we to deny them that opportunity by insisting that, in religion, Black is Black, White is White and there is no room for any other color??

''Too often its members have forgotten the teachings of Jesus about making peace and turning the other cheek and crossing boundaries to serve people formerly considered 'outsiders'.'' I am afraid even the writers of the New Testament were unaware this secret. This is exactly where so many of our leaders have gone astray. While nobody with the least acquaintance of the New testament can disagree that the above is expected of Christians, Christianity is about our salvation. Ephesians 2:8-10 is a favorite Bible passage. It leaves no doubt we are saved by faith, but good works are expected of us.

The real issue is that yes, Chrisianity is a common bond, and as long as common trends don't violate what the bible says there is no problem, but if new teachings violate what the Bible is saying then they can not truly be Christian in its full extent.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The real issue is that yes, Chrisianity is a commom bond, and as long as commom trends don't violate what the bible says there is no problem, but if new teachings violate what the Bible is saying then they can not truly be Christian in its full extent.

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?? Didn't Jesus, himself, violate what the Bible of his day was saying?? He deliberately rejected the Mosaic take on divorce... on the stoning of adulterous women... on violating the Sabbath... on associating with pagans, prostitutes and lepers? How often do we read:
"You have heard it said.....but I tell you....."

As to the 'common bond' of Christianity... that is as tenuous as morning mist. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, are called Satanists by other Christians, even though both religions claim to be followers of Christ. Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians are called 'heretics' by fundamentalist Christians. Adventists cannot even agree among themselves whether the re-advent of Christ will be premillennial or amillenial... Presbyterians are still divided over the Calvanistic doctrine of predestination. Monophysites deny the dual nature of Christ. Many other denominations deny the Triune God. What common bond is it that has not been questioned on biblical grounds?