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-   -   Tracing the power feed in a circuit. (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=165813)

  • Dec 26, 2007, 09:13 AM
    Loureno
    Tracing the power feed in a circuit.
    I have a wall switch that suddenly stopped working. It appears as though the neutral power feed going into the wall switch outlet lost connectivity. If I use a light tester and touch the hot wire with one prong and ground the other prong, there is power; however if a touch the hot and neutral with the tester, I get nothing. All other outlets on this circuit are working properly and this wall switch is the last feed on this circuit. Is there any way I can trace the series of this feed, i.e. what outlet is this feed coming from?
  • Dec 26, 2007, 10:02 AM
    Stratmando
    That test does show neutral is lost, Neutral is not to be power through switch. I would see if 2 or more white wires are intact in box.
    How many wires in switch and receptacle box?
  • Dec 26, 2007, 10:30 AM
    Loureno
    There are two line in box. One is the power feed the other is the line to the fixture. The two white wires are connected and the two black wires were attached to the switch. I took the two black wires off the switch and connected them together, which should light the fixture, but it did not. The bulb is fine and there are no GFIC attached to this circuit. The neutral wire on the power feed has been compromised but I don't know how or where. Is there a test that can be performed to trace exactly where the break has occurred?
  • Dec 26, 2007, 11:59 AM
    labman
    Is there anything else on the same circuit that works? If so, check the neutral connections starting at the closes one to the switch.

    The neutral could also be loose in the panel box. Carefully consider your experience level before removing the cover.
  • Dec 26, 2007, 01:56 PM
    Stratmando
    Since your hot is intact, turn off breakers until power goes out to receptacle, Then see what white(s) go out of panel with that hot.
    While that breaker is off, see what else went out, possibly in one of those boxes.
    If circuit in panel is Identified, would narrow down(Living Room circuit, for example).
  • Dec 27, 2007, 02:06 PM
    donf
    Louren,

    Please start at the fixture and take me through the wires at the fixture. What I'm trying to determine is the source of power to the fixture. Power can come from two directions.

    First - The power feed can come off an outlet, through the switch and up to the fixture.

    Second - Switch loop. This type of installation feeds the overhead junction box. At the box, the Black (Hot) lead is connected to the White lead coming from the switch. This lead should have a small wrapping of black tape on it to signify that it is no longer a Neutral wire. It is a Load carrying line. The other end of the White wire can connect to either terminal of the switch. Personally, I bring power to the bottom of the switch. This White wire should also have a small wrapping of black tape.

    Next, at the switch, the black lead is connected to the top terminal. Then in the ceiling the Black wire from the switch is connected to the Black wire on the FIXTURE! The Fixture's White wire is connected to the White Wire of the source feed pair.

    Test the switch - With the breaker OFF. Hook an Volt/OHM meter (Set for 1K Ohms) across the two terminals of the switch. Manualy work the switch. You should see the needle deflect (Move) when the switch is turned ON and Return when the switch is turned OFF. If you don't see a deflection of the needle, replace the switch.

    With Power on, set the meter for a voltage of 240 VAC. Then connect the red probe on the Black source wire in the ceiling and either the White wire or the Ground wire if one is present. Turn the power back on. You should see the needle deflect to 120 volts.

    If you do not, you need to follow the source all the way back to the panel to see what is killing the supply voltage from getting to the fixture.

    Please get back to me if this does not help you and let me know what your tests revealed.
  • Dec 27, 2007, 02:21 PM
    Loureno
    Don:

    Thank you for your response. The source is in the switch box. I too thought it would have been connected to an outlet nearby but it is not. It appears to run down two floors directly to the basement. Problem is I can't trace it after that as it runs above a sheetrocked ceiling.
  • Dec 27, 2007, 02:35 PM
    ballengerb1
    I just need some clarification. Are you testing the white wire connected to the switch? It may be white but should get a wrap of black tape if it comes off the switch and goes to a fixture.
  • Dec 27, 2007, 02:53 PM
    donf
    Louren,

    Hold up a minute, please. What you are describing is a home run or a straight shot from the panel to the switch and then from the switch to the fixture, correct.

    In this instance, verify the presence of voltage between the two terminals at the switch. You should see 120 VAC when the switch is OFF. 0 VAC, when the switch is ON.

    Do you get this voltage? If not, go to the breaker and verify that the breaker is releasing 120 VAC to the black conductor on the breaker. If you don't see 120 VAC with the breaker in the ON position, pull the beaker's lever all the way OFF and then back ON,

    Since you have the breaker's cover off already, if the cover happened to block the full throw of the breaker's lever you should get it now. Re-check the VAC. If it is 120VAC you should be fine. If there is no voltage, you might have to replace the breaker.
  • Dec 27, 2007, 04:11 PM
    ballengerb1
    Don, you said "In this instance, verify the presence of voltage between the two terminals at the switch. You should see 120 VAC when the switch is OFF. 0 VAC, when the switch is ON." If the switch is bad Louren would get zero volts in both settings, correct? Just trying to include a bad switch in the diagnostics.
  • Dec 27, 2007, 04:36 PM
    Stratmando
    I wouldn't over complicate, sounds like black and white in, and black and white to light,
    Whites should be intact in box, Tie 2 blacks to bypass switch. If it works, and not with switch, replace switch. If you don't do a lot of testing, Voltage may do damage to meter if doing resistance test on switch.
    If this makes any sense, read my second post. If this doesn't make sense, that possibly won't help.
  • Dec 27, 2007, 06:57 PM
    labman
    I have a wall switch that suddenly stopped working. It appears as though the neutral power feed going into the wall switch outlet lost connectivity. If I use a light tester and touch the hot wire with one prong and ground the other prong, there is power; however if a touch the hot and neutral with the tester, I get nothing. All other outlets on this circuit are working properly and this wall switch is the last feed on this circuit. Is there any way I can trace the series of this feed, i.e. what outlet is this feed coming from?


    There are two line in box. One is the power feed the other is the line to the fixture. The two white wires are connected and the two black wires were attached to the switch. I took the two black wires off the switch and connected them together, which should light the fixture, but it did not. The bulb is fine and there are no GFIC attached to this circuit. The neutral wire on the power feed has been compromised but I don't know how or where. Is there a test that can be performed to trace exactly where the break has occurred?


    Don:

    Thank you for your response. The source is in the switch box. I too thought it would have been connected to an outlet nearby but it is not. It appears to run down two floors directly to the basement. Problem is I can't trace it after that as it runs above a sheetrocked ceiling.
    ------------------------------------------
    Looking at your posts and not the other answers. Likely the problem is in a box somewhere, not over the sheetrocked ceiling unless you sheet rocked over a box in violation of code. It shouldn't be in the main panel if outlets on the circuit are working. If there are outlets on the same circuit and only 2 pairs of wires in the switch box, the feed comes from one of the outlets. Start at the outlet closest to the switch. Shut the power off, and pull it out. Carefully examine the wiring. If it feeds the switch, it should have 2 pair of wires. Usually both will be connected to the screws on the outlet. If they are pushed into holes in the back, that could be the problem, the white to the switch isn't making good contact. They are a pain to take apart, holding the outlet, pushing a small screwdriver in the one hole and puling on the wire all at the same time. Get them loose and then secure them under the screws. Note. Duplex outlets have little jumpers you can break off separating the 2 halves. Make sure the one isn't broken off for the white wires.

    Tracing wires behind drywall is tough. If checking the near by outlets doesn't locate the problem, you may need to find where the power comes from. You may be able to do it with a voltage detector. To do simple checks like this you do need some tools. A test light, a meter, or a voltage detector might be the best place to start with. I came across the niftiest gadget for trouble shooting, a voltage detector. They work through the insulation of wires. There are several brands. I have a GB Instruments GVD-505A, less than $15 at Home Depot. Touch it to a hot wire, and the end glows red. Find the doodad that lights it on one side, and not the other, and you have the culprit. You do not have to open up housings and expose electrical contacts. You are looking at where your hand is, not where the meter is. Most people are capable of doing repairs and will get it going and not get hurt if they use a little sense. The voltage detector makes it even easier.

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