Ask Me Help Desk - Jesus: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?

C.S. Lewis said, "...I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him, "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Who would you say that He is?

Yes, many authors wish to try and destroy God, though their writings, but in the end, what S LEWIS though or would like to make us accepts means nothing. The truth to who Christ was and still is, is found in the only writing that really matters, the Bible,

He is the Lord of all, even those who deny him.

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Originally Posted by veritas

C.S. Lewis said, "...I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him, "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Who would you say that He is?

Love incarnate.

Savior, Master, Friend, LORD, Truth, Sword... there are many names that I am coming to know Him by.

At the name of Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.

Try asking JESUS Himself who He really is. He IS REAL and will answer you if you sincerely seek the TRUTH.

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Originally Posted by veritas

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Well, the choices aren't quite so limited as you imply. For one thing, you can notice that Jesus didn't write any books, and apparently didn't encourage any of his immediate associates to do it either. Why do you suppose that is? It certainly wasn't because he didn't know how to write. My own opinion is that the reason he didn't was that, growing up in the book-worshiping culture of his place and time, he realized all too well how the written words attributed to great teachers get distorted and turned into a weapon to enforce orthodoxy and subservience to the religious hierarchy that grows up in their wake.

The truth is, we don't really know what Jesus said or claimed to be. We know what some people who wrote many years after his disappearance say that he said.

If I believed (as I suspect you do) that God inspired every word these writers wrote, and that it wasn't possible for them to be mistaken, or to remember incorrectly, or to write in the service of an agenda that they came up with later, then of course your argument would carry more weight, but I don't believe that.

So yes, I can believe that he was a great human teacher who was neither more nor less Divine in origin than you or me.

I have tried to explain this to many people and they reply similar to ordinaryguy implying things like that the Bible isn't consistent with what Jesus actually said so you can't make that deduction. But it all does boil down to either you believe he is the son of God 0R his words (according to the Bible's accuracy) IF N0T true mean Jesus' claims make him a liar or lunatic if his claims aren't true.
Like if I ran around claiming to be a monkey I would be a lunatic or a liar unless I actually was a monkey.
What other choices would there possibly be??

It all does boil down to apples or oranges.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Well, the choices aren't quite so limited as you imply.

They are if you got your information about Jesus from the Bible. CS Lewis, to which the OP refers was obviously referring to what Jesus said in the Bible. In fact, the Bible says that Jesus was accused of claiming to be God and was sentenced to death for claiming to be God.

So where do you get the other option?

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For one thing, you can notice that Jesus didn't write any books,

That is beside the point. Especially because Jesus established a Church which He gave authority to teach all that He taught.

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and apparently didn't encourage any of his immediate associates to do it either. Why do you suppose that is?

Because He gave them authority to write or not as they wished.

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It certainly wasn't because he didn't know how to write. My own opinion is that the reason he didn't was that, growing up in the book-worshiping culture of his place and time, he realized all too well how the written words attributed to great teachers get distorted and turned into a weapon to enforce orthodoxy and subservience to the religious hierarchy that grows up in their wake.

My opinion is that Jesus knew they would eventually write.

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The truth is, we don't really know what Jesus said or claimed to be. We know what some people who wrote many years after his disappearance say that he said.

You might not. But we believe we know exactly what Jesus taught. It has been brought to us by Scripture and Tradition.

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If I believed (as I suspect you do) that God inspired every word these writers wrote, and that it wasn't possible for them to be mistaken, or to remember incorrectly, or to write in the service of an agenda that they came up with later, then of course your argument would carry more weight, but I don't believe that.

As is your right.

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So yes, I can believe that he was a great human teacher who was neither more nor less Divine in origin than you or me.

But you can't claim to get that belief from anything He said in the Canonical Gospels or from the Church.

So from whom did you get that belief?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Like if I ran around claiming to be a monkey I would be a lunatic or a liar unless I actually was a monkey.
What other choices would there possibly be???

Fifty or a hundred years from now somebody could write that you ran around claiming to be a monkey. The fact that they wrote it wouldn't necessarily mean that you did it, it would just mean that they wrote something about you that wasn't true.

Guess it is hard for us to understand because by faith we believe that Jesus is who the Bible says he says he is (according to the Bible) and if you believe somebody is who they say they are then for it to be otherwise it makes them have to be a lunatic or a liar.
So I guess to us the Bible saying he is the Son of God and our faith to believe it it is hard to understand anything outside of the three choices.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

guess it is hard for us to understand because by faith

Well yes, but not blind faith.

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we believe that Jesus is who the Bible says he says he is (according to the Bible)

Is it just the Bible for you?

The Bible tells us that Jesus lived and that Jesus did a few things which are verifiable. One, He created a Church.
Two, He taught many doctrines which are passed down by this Church.
Three, the Church wrote a book, the New Testament which explains what Jesus did and said.
Four, the Gospels are eyewitness testimonies of Jesus life and deeds.
Five, the people whom Jesus taught and who wrote their testimonies generally died for their beliefs.

So its not as though someone just made up a story and we believe it. There is ample evidence that what they wrote is truth. There is ample evidence of the character of the individuals who wrote the Gospels. And that is ample evidence of Jesus Christ existence and His deeds.

We can compare to any ancient personage of Jesus time and find that Jesus compares very well as far as the amount of evidence which we have to verify His existence.

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and if you believe somebody is who they say they are then for it to be otherwise it makes them have to be a lunatic or a liar.

Exactly true.

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So I guess to us the Bible saying he is the Son of God and our faith to believe it it is hard to understand anything outside of the three choices.

I guess that is why I am asking what source they refer to which says otherwise. Are they, 2000 years removed of the events deciding in a vacuum whether Jesus is or is not what He says He is? Or did they read anything which they believe is by Jesus contemporaries which contradicts the Bible?

Sure it takes faith. But for me, faith is this way. Lets say that I meet someone and he says he'll do such and such. And he does. And every time he says he'll do something, he keeps his word. Well, I learn to have faith in that person.

On the other hand, if someone lies to me, I soon learn not to have faith in that person.

So, for me, the Church has not lied. So I have faith in what the Church teaches in Her Scriptures and Her Traditions.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Dear Veritas and Forum Members,

I know I probably won't change minds with this answer, and I know many won't like my answer, but this is AskMeHelpDesk.com, somebody asked, and it's all about answers:

There is yet a fourth possibility which Choux referred to and which C.S. Lewis didn't acknowledge--Perhaps the Jesus Christ worshipped by Christianity never existed to even be a Liar, a Lunatic, or a Lord.

Think about it: Not only did Jesus not write anything himself, as OrdinaryGuy rightly pointed out, but also a large chunk of the life of Jesus--from around age 12 to age 32--is left out of the Gospels. This leaves a lot of room for doubt about the life of Jesus as a historical being. (Albeit, singer/songwriter John Prine did do a song called "Jesus: The Missing Years."
]; -{)> )

Also, if the Jesus Christ worshipped by Christianity existed, wouldn't there be tax records to corroborate his existence, since according to the story, Mary and Joseph came to Bethlehem to pay the tax of Caesar Augustus? As pointed out in the movie 'V' for Vendetta no records are more revealing than tax records.

Moreover, if there existed a man who performed all the miracles attributed to Jesus, wouldn't non-religious historians and chroniclers of the time have corroborated the existence of the man and his miracles? A man walking on water, feeding 5000 with a few loaves and fishes, and raising the dead would certainly get my attention and be record-worthy.

Also, according to Bibical scholar Dr. Elliot Lesser, the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John weren't put to parchment until about 95 years after the time in which Jesus supposedly died. In the course of that much time, anything could be said about anybody, and any legends could be made about anybody, even non-existent persons.

So, to answer the question "Jesus: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?" , I would say:

Until somebody has concrete, biological, anthropological, historical, primary-source proof that Jesus Christ even existed, I'll have to say "None of the above."

All right, now get the stones, pitchforks, and bundles of sticks and let the fun commence!

]; -{)>

When I was in middle school I went to a private school and when we had a substitute and we had a conversasion like this and he said if you are a christian and are questioning god and christ think of it as this way if you boleve in him and folow his path you will go to heaven but f u don't u might go to heaven and confront him and be like"oh woops maby i should have boleved in it" but what can it hurt just to boleve in a cause and ule think if only I just boleved in him it would all be OK... I guess it has kind of 2 ways to it but if you think about it you should just boleve in god and christ and that christ is god in human form

There ARE many historical references that Jesus DID exist that are not church or religion related. I looked this up so far but know there are more that give more historical stuff than this

Proving the historic Jesus
And it is by an unbeliever. I would be glad to look for more, got to go right now.

Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus recorded information pertaining to Jesus, thus removing the only supporting source for His existence as being in the New Testament. In 115 A.D. Tactius wrote about the great fire in Rome, "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberious at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths, Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

It is believed by some scholars that Tactius gained his information about Christ from official records, perhaps actual reports written by Pilate. Tactius also wrote about the burning of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. The Christians are mentioned as a group that were connected with these events. "All we can gather from this reference is that Tactius was also aware of the existence of Christians other than in the context of their presence in Rome," states Habermas. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian, wrote, "Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the City." Chrestus is a variant spelling of Christ. Suetonius refers to a wave of riots that broke out in a large Jewish community in Rome during the year 49 A.D. As a result, the Jews were banished from the city.

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. "...he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." He also wrote, "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." These historical writings predated the Old Testament. Josephus died in 97 A.D.

Before Tacitus, Suetonius or Josephus, Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus' work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse. Though Christ was not proclaimed a deity until the fourth century, Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in 112 A.D. two hundred years before the "deity" proclamation, that Christians in Bithynia worshipped Christ.

Two references have been made to a report by Pontius Pilate. The references include Justin Martyr (150 A.. D.) and Tetullian (200 A.D.). Both references correspond with the fact that there was an official document in Rome from Pilate. The Pilate report detailed the crucifixion but also reported acts of miracles. Emperor Tiberius acted on Pilate's report, according to Tertullian, to the Roman Senate. "Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians."

The Talmud, which consists of Jewish traditions handed down orally from generation to generation, was organized by Rabbi Akiba before his death in 135 A.D. The writings in the Talmud embrace the legal, ritual and exegetical commentaries that have developed right down to contemporary times. In Sanhedrin 43a, reference to Jesus is found. "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."If Jesus had been stoned, his death would have been at the hands of the Jews. The fact he was crucified shows that the Romans intervened. The Talmud also speaks of five of Jesus' disciples and recounts their standing before judges who made individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. No deaths are recorded.

Other Talmud references to Jesus indicated that Jesus was "treated differently from others who led the people astray, for he was connected with royalty." These Talmud accounts were written long before the New Testament was assembled. They provide clear evidence that Jesus did live. The Talmud does not embrace Christ as a deity and would have no reason to sanction his existence. The Talmud also states that Jesus was 33 or 34 years old when he died. The risen Christ is the foundation of Christianity. But Christ would have to have lived and died before His resurrection could become an historical factor.

Toledoth Jesu is also part of Jewish writing, as well. The disputed text states that the disciples of Jesus had planned to steal the fallen body of Christ. However, a gardener named Juda discovered their plans and dug a new grave in his garden. Then he removed Jesus' body from Joseph's tomb and placed it in his own newly dug grave. The disciples came to the original tomb, found Jesus' body gone and proclaimed him risen. The Jewish leaders also proceeded to Joseph's tomb and found it empty. Juda then took them to his grave and dug up the body of Jesus. The Jewish leaders were greatly relieved and wanted to take the body. Juda replied that he would sell them the body of Jesus and did so for thirty pieces of silver. The Jewish priests then dragged Jesus' body through the streets of Jerusalem. Strangely enough, Juda and Judas are similar, in the Talmud Juda receives thirty pieces of silver and in the New Testament Judas receives thirty pieces of silver. Shortly after this time, the Emperor decreed that grave robbing in Palestine would be a capital offense.

These commentaries have been discredited by Jewish and Christian scholars. The anti-Christian commentary was created in the fifth century. The importance of this passage, historically correct or not, is to place Jesus in the tomb of Joseph after crucifixion and to record the consternation of the Jewish Priests. This places historic significance on the fact that Jesus did live and die in history. He was not a myth.

The New Testament speaks of a census at the time of Christ's birth. Historical records indicate that a census was ordered in Syria and Judea between 6 and 5 B.C. and 5 and 6 A.D. Returning to a person's home city was definitely the practice of the time. Luke refers to Quirinius being governor of Syria during the time of the census, again historically correct.

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Originally Posted by TheUnboundOne

All right, now get the stones, pitchforks, and bundles of sticks and let the fun commence!

I'm sure it won't get that bad. But it sounds like you like to debate.

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Dear Veritas and Forum Members,

I know I probably won't change minds with this answer, and I know many won't like my answer, but this is AskMeHelpDesk.com, somebody asked, and it's all about answers:

There is yet a fourth possibility which Choux referred to and which C.S. Lewis didn't acknowledge--Perhaps the Jesus Christ worshipped by Christianity never existed to even be a Liar, a Lunatic, or a Lord.

Does that seem likely considering that the Apostles died for what they believed? Is there a record of any other group of people suffering persecution and dying for a lie?

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Think about it: Not only did Jesus not write anything himself, as OrdinaryGuy rightly pointed out, but also a large chunk of the life of Jesus--from around age 12 to age 32--is left out of the Gospels. This leaves a lot of room for doubt about the life of Jesus as a historical being. (Albeit, singer/songwriter John Prine did do a song called "Jesus: The Missing Years."
]; -{)> )

Apparently He was a child who didn't do anything noteworthy. Do we have the childhood histories of any other personages of Jesus time?

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Also, if the Jesus Christ worshipped by Christianity existed, wouldn't there be tax records to corroborate his existence,

Do we have the tax records of any other persons of Jesus time?

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since according to the story, Mary and Joseph came to Bethlehem to pay the tax of Caesar Augustus? As pointed out in the movie 'V' for Vendetta no records are more revealing than tax records.

True. But if we have no one else's records from first century Bethlehem or Jerusalem, why would you expect to have Jesus alone?

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Moreover, if there existed a man who performed all the miracles attributed to Jesus, wouldn't non-religious historians and chroniclers of the time have corroborated the existence of the man and his miracles?

Not necessarily. Most historians of that era were interested in their own countrymen's accomplishments. And no one seemed interested in Jewish history except Jews. Jesus had four historians who wrote about Him. Apparently, no one else was interested.

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A man walking on water, feeding 5000 with a few loaves and fishes, and raising the dead would certainly get my attention and be record-worthy.

Too bad you weren't there.

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Also, according to Bibical scholar Dr. Elliot Lesser, the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John weren't put to parchment until about 95 years after the time in which Jesus supposedly died. In the course of that much time, anything could be said about anybody, and any legends could be made about anybody, even non-existent persons.

Dr. Elliot is wrong.

When were the gospels written and by whom?
The dates of the Gospels

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So, to answer the question "Jesus: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?" , I would say:

Until somebody has concrete, biological, anthropological, historical, primary-source proof that Jesus Christ even existed, I'll have to say "None of the above."
]; -{)>

You have the right to do so, but it certainly makes it hard to explain the existence of the Church, Her Scriptures and Traditions for the past 2000 years.

I wonder if you hold every 1st century historical figure to the same stringent standards? If you do, which 1st century figure do you believe actually existed?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I understand all that but can't figure out how to express it in words that unbelieving can relate to

Just put it in your own words. For those who believe, it will fortify their faith. For those who do not believe, it may help them come to the faith or more likely, they won't be moved.

As the old saying goes, "for those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who will not believe, no proof is ever enough."

All we can do is keep trying.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus, our Saviour, salvation and superman
Read the Holy NIV Bible and you will discover the truth
And PROOF that Jesus is real?
Think of how many copies of the bibles there are compared to other religions!

Hallelujah
Merry Christmas-JESUS'S BIRTH
LUNATIC, LIAR?
HAHA! No!

What do I say about Jesus? Jesus IS Lord. He is not a lunatic nor a liar.