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-   -   Built in dishwasher (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=158970)

  • Dec 3, 2007, 08:22 PM
    ViVid
    Built in dishwasher
    Does the NEC allow a built in dishwasher to be connected to existing small appliance circuits and which section of the NEC covers this situation
  • Dec 3, 2007, 09:39 PM
    Stratmando
    Sure. Breaker and wiring need to handle the rating of the dishwasher. There are some 30 Amp/ 240 volts Dishwashers for homes, they would need own circuit.
  • Dec 3, 2007, 10:45 PM
    Washington1
    Sorry, but I disagree! I say no, based on NEC 210.52(B)(2)
    In addition it may violate 110.3(B)
  • Dec 4, 2007, 08:11 AM
    Cobraguy
    Washington... I think there is some room for interpretation by the AHJ. Take a look at 210.52(B)(5). I believe that would allow the use of a receptacle on one of the two required circuits. In my own home, the disposal and dishwasher are on a dedicated circuit. However, on my son's home, they are part of one of the two dedicated circuits. Different AHJ's. Personally, I would want them on their own circuit, but if that's not practical at this point, I would make a case to the AHJ and see what they have to say about it. They are after all, the final authority in this decision.
  • Dec 4, 2007, 03:10 PM
    Washington1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Cobraguy
    Washington...I think there is some room for interpretation by the AHJ. Take a look at 210.52(B)(5). I believe that would allow the use of a receptacle on one of the two required circuits. In my own home, the disposal and dishwasher are on a dedicated circuit. However, on my son's home, they are part of one of the two dedicated circuits. Different AHJ's. Personally, I would want them on their own circuit, but if that's not practical at this point, I would make a case to the AHJ and see what they have to say about it. They are after all, the final authority in this decision.

    There is no 210.52(B)(5)
    -Putting the disposal and diswasher on the same circuit has nothing to do with the kitchens 2 small appliance circuits.
    -It may be done that way in your son's home, but that doesn't make it right by today's code.
    -Now, if the AHJ wants to allow a person to install against NEC 210.52 (B)(2), then so be it. I do not see room for interpretation on this article. Note: The article says: shall have no other outlets
    -Also note NEC 110.3(B)

    -Thanks for the feed back, will await your comment... :)
  • Dec 5, 2007, 03:49 AM
    tkrussell
    A dishwasher is a fixed or stationary appliance, and falls under Article 422-Appliances, and requires a separate circuit, and cannot be connected to the two "small appliance" receptacle circuits required in a kitchen.
  • Dec 5, 2007, 05:59 AM
    Cobraguy
    Washington... my apologies. It's 210.52(C)(5)! Here's what it says...

    (5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall
    be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above,
    the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible
    by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages,
    or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered
    as these required outlets.
    Exception: To comply with the conditions specified in (a) or
    (b), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not
    more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop. Receptacles
    mounted below a countertop in accordance with this exception
    shall not be located where the countertop extends
    more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.
    (a) Construction for the physically impaired.
    (b) On island and peninsular countertops where the countertop
    is flat across its entire surface (no backsplashes,
    dividers, etc.) and there are no means to mount a receptacle
    within 500 mm (20 in.) above the countertop, such
    as an overhead cabinet.


    I believe this leaves room for interpretation by an AHJ.

    Tk... I don't see anywhere in 422 where it addresses a dedicated circuit for the dishwasher. I'm not trying to be a hard a** here... I am just trying to have an educating discussion. (my education!) One thing I've discovered about NEC and AHJ's, is that it's far from being set in stone. Much is left to individual interpretation.
  • Dec 5, 2007, 09:00 AM
    Washington1
    Cobraguy,

    You are reading it wrong. Look at Article 210.52(C)5 again. In specific: (5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall
    be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above,
    the countertop.


    Then re-read 210.52(B)2
  • Dec 5, 2007, 09:11 AM
    Stratmando
    Just to be clear, poster did not say it was on one of the 2 required. Personally, I put D/W and disposal on its own circuit. Some Kitchen's, I have each receptacle on own circuit for those cooking Fools, Who have everything Going. Is actually nice. They enjoy not having to be as careful to overloading.
  • Dec 5, 2007, 09:18 AM
    Washington1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ViVid
    OP said: does the NEC allow a built in dishwasher to be connected to existing small appliance circuits and which section of the NEC covers this situation

    Quote:

    Just to be clear, poster did not say it was on one of the 2 required.
    True, but it was asked, "was it allowed to be."

    Cobra,

    Also note 110.3

    It is not rare to see a Manufacture asking for a dedicated circuit to their appliance.

    PS: I love discussion in this fashion! Love it! It helps people think--in the process they are learning!
  • Dec 5, 2007, 01:32 PM
    tkrussell
    Cobra, how would interpret a permanently installed dishwasher?

    I interpret a DW as an appliance.

    I doubt you will find any AHJ that would allow a DW on one of the "Small Appliance" circuits, as they are dedicated and intended for use by coffee pots, toasters, frying pans, and any other counter type small appliance.

    And since the DW is fixed and stationary, it falls under Art 422.

    And in addition to that, as Washington mentions, per manufacturers instructions.

    As to reinforce Washington point, Sec 210.52 falls under sub article 3 (III)-Required Outlets.

    Before trying to interpret any section, one must note the heading it is under.

    A DW is not a required outlet.

    So let's end this question for Vivid, to answer his question, no a dishwasher cannot be connected to one of the required "Small Appliance" circuits, and follow the manufacturers instructions.

    I suspect that is what he/she found, and is trying to get around it.

    If anyone would like a code discussion on a particular topic, lets get in the habit of starting another question, and not add discussion posts to a person's question.

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