Ask Me Help Desk - Practical circuit limitations for remodeled kitchen

Hi there everyone,

I've got a question or two:

I'm remodeling my kitchen and during the process, I've been getting rid of the shared circuits throughout(one leg of a 220 was feeding different things on three floors of the house). After the dust settled, I've found that I have:

1 220 line for stove
1 110 line for fridge
1 110 line for dishwasher
1 110 line for microwave
1 110 line for lights & receptacles

All 12ga. Wire

My lights are:

5 75 watt par30 floods (375 watts)
2 35 watt halogen point lights over the sink 70 watts)

My number of outlets in the kitchen(aside from the dedicated circuits) are 4.

My question(s):

1) If my calculations are correct, my lighting accounts for 3.7 amps, leaving a buffer of 16+ amps for the remaining 4 receptacles in the kitchen.

I've read up on this a lot. General consensus is that you should run the lights on one circuit and have 2 20 amp circuits(one for each side of the kitchen). I don't need two circuits for four receptacles, so at the most, I'd only have one, but would you guys be ok with running the lights and recepts on the same circuit if it were your house? I sure as heck don't want to have to deal with tripped breakers down the road, but I have to balance the chance of that with the incredible pain in the keester it's going to be to pull a new run from the panel.

Please don't tell me I can run as many as I'd like, that there's no code for this or that I'm OK as long as I don't run my blender with my curling iron. I'm looking for an experienced real world opinion if you think four kitchen recepts and 445 watts of lighting is too much for one circuit.

2) Are my dedicated circuits overkill, meaning is there any appliance that doesn't require it's own circuit? I had always learned they each get their own, but boy it would be nice to have one more leg to the panel :D

Thanks for your time!
Json

Quote:

I've read up on this a lot. General consensus is that you should run the lights on one circuit and have 2 20 amp circuits(one for each side of the kitchen). I don't need two circuits for four receptacles

Two shall be installed per NEC 210.52 (B)(1) also, all 120v 1phase receptacles that serve countertop surfaces shall have GFCI protection. Are the walls open?

1

Quote:

) If my calculations are correct, my lighting accounts for 3.7 amps, leaving a buffer of 16+ amps for the remaining 4 receptacles in the kitchen.

Your kitchen receptacles cannot be on the same circuit

Quote:

Please don't tell me I can run as many as I'd like, that there's no code for this or that I'm OK as long as I don't run my blender with my curling iron. I'm looking for an experienced real world opinion if you think four kitchen recepts and 445 watts of lighting is too much for one circuit.

It's unrealistic to believe we can assume what a homeowner plans to put on his or her circuit. We can only base it on real numbers.

Quote:

2) Are my dedicated circuits overkill, meaning is there any appliance that doesn't require it's own circuit? I had always learned they each get their own, but boy it would be nice to have one more leg to the panel

Looks good to me. Yet, you will need two 20A small appliance circuits for your kitchen receptacles. You could use the 20A refrig circuit to serve as one of your small appliance circuits--extending it to one of your kitchen receptacles (this will be your GFCI receptacle). ********Note: if you plan to use the refrig circuit as one of your Kitchen's small appliance circuits, do not install the GFCI receptacle at the refrig outlet.

Hi there Washington, and thanks very much for the reply.

The walls are open. Currently, it would be a physical impossibility to dedicate two circuits for the 4 outlets(:rolleyes:) and have a dedicated circuit for the lights, since I don't have enough open breakers to support this. I can understand separating the lights and will try to find a way to pull this off, but the four recepts are just going to have to play nice. All subsequent recepts are being fed through the GFCI at the head of the line.

The fridge is the only circuit I would never consider sharing, since I've once paid for the cost of replacing the contents due to a tripped breaker.

I do find it amusing that four recepts must be on two separate circuits due to their orientation to each other, but that it's OK to use the fridge circtuit to power one of them. I would have thought that the fridge circuit would be of primary concern.

Thanks,
Json

Quote:

do find it amusing that four recepts must be on two separate circuits due to their orientation to each other, but that it's OK to use the fridge circtuit to power one of them. I would have thought that the fridge circuit would be of primary concern.

Note that the starting of the circuit starts at the refrig, and can serve one or more receptacle outlets in the kitchen. In most pratical cases you would divide the outlets being served between the two 20A circuits required. So, if you have four (not including the refrig). You would put two on one circuit, and two on the other.

If the walls are open, then you should follow code--making sure you have a counter top receptacle for every countertop that's 12 inches or wider. Then having a receptacle outlet installed so that no point along the wall counter space is no more than 2 feet from a receptacle outlet in that space.

Then more code per Article 210.52
Can you install a sub-panel to accommodate today's code?

Hi there again,

I appreciate your assistance. It's quite confusing to the layman :)

Ok, I pulled the cover off the panel, and I've begun fixing where they piggy-backed circuits. I had cleared two 220 breakers(old baseboard heating), but the piggy-backed circuits burnt up my newly earned openings :(

I really hate to pull off the refrigerator for this. Is this accepted practice and commonly done? In your opinion, do you think it's better to do this than it is to share a single circuit? I know that the code is in favor of this method, but they don't pay for replacement food ;)

A couple more questions as well, if you don't mind:

1) Is the setback for an outlet from a source of water 3ft, or am I remembering incorrectly?

2) In the case of a porch light/outlet, can this be shared on any of the circuits in question, or is it expected to have a dedicated circuit as well? I could come up with another feed if I can use this.

Thanks,
Json

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I really hate to pull off the refrigerator for this. Is this accepted practice and commonly done?

Yes, per E3603.2 and NEC 210.52. Yet, it will only qaulify one circuit--if you only have a 12-2 with ground ran to the kitchen refrig outlet. You need two (2), which would require a 12-3 with ground or two 12-2's with ground.

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In your opinion, do you think it's better to do this than it is to share a single circuit? I know that the code is in favor of this method, but they don't pay for replacement food

It depends on the load. I've never had any problems. Get me the nameplate reading off your refrig, and I can give you an idea. Yet, I haven't seen many refrigs that require more than 5amps. It's normal for us to place the refrig on the 20A small app ciruit. We normally run a multi-circuit (12-3/ with ground) from the service rated panel to the refrig outlet, then branch out from there. Also note that you can run a separate (dedicated) 15A circuit to your refrig in the kitchen [Must be dedicated, or the refrig must go on the kitchen's 20A small appliance circuit]. It comes down to prefrence in some cases regarding rather the refrig should be dedicated, or served off the small app circuit. I say, serve it off the app circuit, unless you are planning on going all out on your refrig appliance.
Are you planning to have a ton of countertop appliances?

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1) Is the setback for an outlet from a source of water 3ft, or am I remembering incorrectly?

2 feet from the edge of the sink. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate contertop spaces. You will apply the "rule" I posted above on placement of receptacles above kitchen countertops. Note: Receptacles shall be located above the countertop, but no higher than 20 inches. Also note that, if the counterspace is 12 inches or wider, you will still need a receptacle above that countertop (as stated above)

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2) In the case of a porch light/outlet, can this be shared on any of the circuits in question, or is it expected to have a dedicated circuit as well? I could come up with another feed if I can use this.

It can be shared on the lighting circuit, but not the kitchen's 20A small appliance circuit.

Please rate my answers

Hi there Washington, thanks again for all of the help.

I've pulled the panel apart completely and have begun paring down the abandoned circuits in hopes to get what I need out of it without having to deal with a subpanel.

I've got to add a two or three more receptacles because I wasn't aware that 12" counted as enough of a counterspace to require it's own receptacle.

I've pulled all of the lead common and switch leg for my light circuit and only have to take care of the two appliance circuits and I should be all set to drywall.

I sure do appreciate all of your assistance. It's priceless.

Thanks,
Json