Okay, so this is a very debatable topic and I just wanted to here some different views on the subject. Sorry for making this question so long, but I have to tell a few stories to get my point across...

The day I got back to work after my honeymoon I herd a girl I work with is pregnant. She is the same age as me, and had got engaged to her long time boyfriend around the sametime as me also. She was planning on getting married the summer after I did. She had found out she was pregnant and as soon as she told her fiancé he broke up with her, AND moved to the other side of the country so he wouldn't have to deal with any of the responsilbity! What a jerk right, he obviously wasn't ready for marriage!!
It made me think of my vows I had only taken 3 weeks earlier. No matter what happens my husband and I vowed to each other that we are in it for the long haul. I know he won't leave me for getting pregnant with his child!
I know this girl didn't plan on getting pregnant, but why would you have sex with someone (obivously unprotected) knowing there is a possibility of getting pregnant without being in a committed relationship. Why take that chance of possibly getting pregnant knowing that your partner can leave you at any moment he/she chooses because he/she didn't vow to you to be together forever.

Yet another story...

Another girl I work with had been dating her boyfriend for 14 years! WOW I know! They are in their early 30's. They have even bought a house together a few years back (which is quiet a commitment in itself). She says she REALLY wants to get married and have children. She talks about it all the time. He refuses to get married but is up to the idea of getting her pregnant.

So I think... why would someone not want to get married if they are willing to have children with that person? Possibly so they can hit the road when ever they choose!

And why would anyone put themselves in that situation by having sex with someone who can just get up and leave when ever they'd like? No wonder why there is so many single moms out there!

You have a very good question there. I am have 3 children, the first to a guy who is an a@#hole, but his parents are really great. No we never married. I am now in a relationship with a guy who is absolutely wonderful, we have had our on & off periods, we have 3 yr old twins. His mother is a big b@#ch. I was on the pill both times I fell pregnant, lucky for me my current man loves my eldest like she was his own. We plan on getting married next yr maybe depending on finances has kids are expensive. But marriage isn't the be all & end all of a relationship. No offence intended but it is a piece of paper to show the world. Not everyone needs that to be with someone forever.

I understand people don't need marriage to be with someone forever, but I dissagree that it is just a piece of paper... when I think of a wedding the first thing that comes to mind is not the paper you sign, but the promise you make to each other in front of all the people that mean the most to you, which is something unmarried people don't do.

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Originally Posted by mjl

I know this girl didn't plan on getting pregnant, but why would you have sex with someone (obivously unprotected) knowing there is a possiblity of getting pregnant without being in a committed relationship. Why take that chance of possibly getting pregnant knowing that your partner can leave you at any moment he/she chooses because he/she didn't vow to you to be together forever.

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Some people don't think that their partner will leave. Who knows what really goes on in a relationship except the people involved. Maybe the relationship was in trouble and she was fearful that they wouldn't get married next year. She might have thought that getting pregnant would keep him with her and she miscalculated. Or, she just might have thought since they were getting married next year, it wouldn't be a big deal if she became pregnant now. As you get older and see all the crazy things people do, you will find you will understand human nature less and less. ;)

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Originally Posted by mjl

Another girl I work with had been dating her boyfriend for 14 years!! WOW I know! They are in their early 30's. They have even bought a house together a few years back (which is quiet a committment in itself). She says she REALLY wants to get married and have children. She talks about it all the time. He refuses to get married but is up to the idea of getting her pregnant.

So I think... why would someone not want to get married if they are willing to have children with that person? Possibly so they can hit the road when ever they choose!!

And why would anyone put themselves in that situation by having sex with someone who can just get up and leave when ever they'd like? No wonder why there is so many single moms out there!

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Well, you have your head screwed on straight. A lot of people don't. They allow the relationship to dictate their lives instead of the other way around.

You know, for some, marriage is scary. They think it will screw everything up. Are they less committed? No. Maybe for some, they had divorced parents and don't want to follow in those footsteps.

A lot of people have sex without thinking of the consequences. If someone thought they were going to get AIDS by sleeping with this or that person - would they, No.
That part of sex, no one thinks about (or a large majority).
Sometimes I think that if the only thing that happens to you after unprotected sex is pregnancy - it isn't the worst thing. I mean, you can get diseases that have no cure or you can get a disease that could take your life.
I really think that the only thing that enters into a person's mind when thinking of having sex is the pleasure it will bring. No one considers the possible pain as a result of their actions.

A marriage can fall apart as easily as a relationship out of marriage... it just costs money.

My daughters father and I were engaged when I got pregnant, I was in college, neither of us had planned or wanted a baby at that time... but I fell pregnant while on the pill so your statement here is completely false.

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I know this girl didn't plan on getting pregnant, but why would you have sex with someone (obivously unprotected) knowing there is a possibility of getting pregnant without being in a committed relationship.

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So the topic of your question should be about sex before marriage, not children before marriage.

Because had I gotten married at that time, and got pregnant afterwards, our relationship could have fallen apart as well.

Just because you are married doesn't mean your relationship... children or not, will last.

I could be wrong but I don't think mjl was taking into consideration people who got pregnant while on the pill. Maybe she should have not generalized as she did in her post. I took mjl's question about the two specific people she is talking about, and that both these women purposefully left themselves open to having children with men that aren't fully committed to a life together. And, she was asking why someone would be compelled to do that.

Personally there are two rules of thumb that I have always lived by. I wouldn't buy real estate or have a child with someone without the benefit of a solid marriage. I have always felt that it would just make life too complicated for ME, and I am all about avoiding complications. LOL.

You are right Macksmom, marriages do fall apart. I came close to marriage twice prior to marrying my late husband. I knew, even though I loved those other two men at the time, that in the long run, it just wouldn't work. They didn't offer me the emotional support I was looking for. I felt they weren't as committed to making the relationship work as I was. I was looking for the lifetime commitment in which two people have the same goals, are committed to emotionally supporting the other, work together to resolve the problems that life throws at you, and a husband I could call my best friend, through thick and thin. Frankly, I never thought I would get married and that was fine by me.

mjl talked about the vows you make in a marriage in her follow up post. I do believe that a lot of people don't take the time to really think about what that means. It is easy to get a divorce in our society but the emotional toll it takes can be so devastating. Why do some women wind up married to abusive men? Maybe it has more to do with inexperience and youth, not recognizing certain traits that are detrimental to a woman's mental & physical well being. But, mjl was also talking about a woman who is in a 14 year relationship and the guy still doesn't want to marry her. I too wonder why a woman would place herself in that position. I personally would rather walk away from a relationship than be with someone who does not want to fully commit to me. I certainly wouldn't want to purposefully bring a child into this world knowing that there are some problems in my relationship with the father that haven't been resolved.

I totally agree with all your points. But I still think maybe what mjl may be trying to address is SEX before marriage. I pointed out that her statement was incorrect because she assumes that this woman got pregnant because she had sex "obviously unprotected"... so I was pointing out that is not always the case and such assumptions should not be made. She stated in the first 'senario' that the woman was engaged and her relationship didn't fall apart until AFTER she found out she was pregnant. So I'm sure in this girls mind... they were in a committed relationship. So I don't think relationships can be generalized or judged by a person that wasn't involved in that relationship. I'm sure this girl thought her and her fiancé were in it forever, and that nothing could come between them... that is usually the intention when someone asks you to marry them.

Everyone is so quick to judge when it's not them. Did I EVER think my daughters father would change so drastically when I got pregnant? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Did we express to each other (before finding out we were pregnant) that we were going to be with each other forever and nothing could come between us? EVERYDAY. Did we promise to be together forever? YES. We were in a committed relationship, took vows within our relationship... so aside from signing a piece of paper and legally being married... we ended up "divorced" just the same.

Now mjl's second 'senario', I agree, raises some red flags... you're all right with having a child with someone, but not spending the rest of your life with that person?

Still, granted, people can be life long partners WITHOUT getting married.

When my daughters father and I found out I was pregnant, everyone urged us to move up the wedding date so we would be married before my daughter was born. I told them no... we hadn't planned on getting married that early and I wasn't getting married just because I was pregnant.
Thankfully I didn't or I'm sure I would have been divorced by now.

Ruby, I too came close to marriage a few times before I married my husband... with my daughters father and 2 men after my daughter was born. But I didn't want to rush into anything. And I told everyone, if I was destined to live my life alone and not ever get married I was completely fine with that.

So while I agree with everyone's points basically, I just don't agree with judging others... assuming they weren't in a committed relationship just because they weren't legally married.

Well, I created quiet a debate!
With the second story I posted Macksmom said "Still, granted, people can be life long partner WITHOUT getting married" I agree with that but, she REALLY REALLY wants to get married and he doesn't, what you said would only apply if neither wanted to get married.

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Originally Posted by mjl

Well, I created quiet a debate!
With the second story I posted Macksmom said "Still, granted, people can be life long partner WITHOUT getting married" I agree with that but, she REALLY REALLY wants to get married and he doesn't, what you said would only apply if neither wanted to get married.

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I was not relating my comment solely to that incident... but it would still apply.

In that situation, the woman can choose does she want to get married so badly that she is willing to give up on a love and settle for someone that does want to get married? If so, then this relationship most likely wouldn't have survived anyway. Love and commitment shouldn't be contained within the working of a piece of paper and a ring.

Love is a commitment between two people, married or not.

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Originally Posted by mjl

Another girl I work with had been dating her boyfriend for 14 years!! WOW I know! They are in their early 30's. They have even bought a house together a few years back (which is quiet a committment in itself). She says she REALLY wants to get married and have children. She talks about it all the time. He refuses to get married but is up to the idea of getting her pregnant.

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On the subject of not wanting to get married, my Best Friend, who is also my eldest daughter's god mother, her parents have been engaged for 30 yrs. Her father would have loved to have married but her mother saw no point as they love each other dearly and have kept their promise to each other for 30yrs and are still going strong. I admire them for their strength, love and commitment to each other.

Everyone in this day and age knows the risks involved with having sex (married or not), so I don't really believe in "accidents". (I also became pregnant on the pill and sadly, miscarried last Thanksgiving. However, I knew there was a slim chance of becoming pregnant regardless of the meds, so I cannot call that a "mistake" by any means.)Some couples may become pregnant once they're engaged because they feel that commitment prior to marriage. Some want children without marriage; which I admit confuses me since the commitment is lifelong as well.

Some people just don't think, some people get in situations beyond their control, some people are attacked and the result may be a child.

I am a newly wed, just now trying to conceive. I was born to unmarried parents though, so I know both sides. My parents married just before my younger brother was born, but quess what? That wasn't enough to keep them together. (Thank goodness, since my dad probably would have killed us) Marriages just as well as untraditional relationships sometimes crumble with the weight of raising children.

Its all about personal choice and doing what you believe to be right. The key is to remember that sometimes other people have to come before yourself.

A marriage certificate is worth nothing without commitment, else why the high divorce rate? I am a strong believer in marriage, but life hands you a wild card once in a while. Not all best made plans go the way you think they will. The most wonderful person in your life might decide he (she) was too young, or too pressured, or too in love with love to continue for the long term. Children, jobs, obligations, all add another dimension. And there is the beast hiding in the closet... infidelity. I worked in a counseling group in a religious center for several years. I have had so many cry on my shoulder. No one ever thinks it will happen to them. My marrige has worked for the long term.
I thank God. And I know I am lucky.

I feel a little sad to hear these stories! It is even becoming common in china that many young people get pregnant or have babies before marriage! If this happened decades ago,that is impossible and forbidden!but now it seems acceptable!! No wonder nowadays so many people don't make commitments to their partners easily even they know they should! And even commitments were made but were broke easily! What changed? We or the society!

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Originally Posted by dna

No offence intended but it is a piece of paper to show the world. Not everyone needs that to be with someone forever.

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True, one doesn't need a "piece of paper" in order to love someone "until death do you part." BUT, that "piece of paper" IS a legal document. It makes any resulting children legitimate with all sorts of rights and privileges. The couple themselves have all sorts of legal property and inheritance rights because of that legal and binding document.

Why do you think the gay community wants so badly to be able to legally marry? Marriage confers all sorts of benefits on a couple.