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Originally Posted by americangayboy

I'm not quite sure I understand this, but if you mean we're sick of being politicized, your damn right! I'm sick of being used as a political tool. We're not trying to hurt anyone's marriage, corrupt their children, destroy society, etc. yet conservatives spin it that way to motivate their base. I really think it's a stretch to say that these politicians actually care about gay marriage when there is no evidence, or probable cause, to suggest allowing gay marriage would hurt society in any way. Also, I don't like it when politicians insincerely support our causes (many talk the talk, but don't walk the walk).

Please let me know if I didn't discuss what you meant. I really am unclear about what you meant.

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Yes that is exactly what I meant. Politicizing. Except it seems more to me that it is more the
Over-zealous liberals that want to make an "issue" (as you said, "insincere support") of their acceptance of gays that politicize more so than conservatives. Like many gays I know say they are not happy with the S&M leather IN the street parades that make gays look like they are bazar when they want to simply live a normal life. They say they feel that many people think this is normal everyday behavior for the gay. But then the conservatives DO take it to another extreme (as you said) which isn't right either as it also gives a wrong image as well.

What's the issue here…that liberals politicize Gays more than conservatives? Either one does not change the fact that conservative theory, by and large allows that Gay is a choice and therefore a sin.

Liberals don't give "insincere support" for gay issues. That is an outright lie. *Shame*

Most Christian Conservatives consider homosexuality a "sin" and their leaders go on televised programs and preach against homosexual's having all legal rights that heterosexuals have.

What we really have is right wing Christians who have no positive CONCRETE core of beliefs to bind them together using fear of one group to unite behind... funny how fear leads to hate and so on...

Homosexuals aren't the only group the Christians attack.

Too bad they don't have anything of value to place forward into the spotlight. All their fear and hate mongering is harmful to all of us.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Yes that is exactly what I meant. Politicizing. Except it seems more to me that it is more the over-zealous liberals that want to make an "issue" (as you said, "insincere support") of their acceptance of gays that politicize more so than conservatives.

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I accept that liberals on the campaign front would purposely exploit gays issues for their own means.

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Originally Posted by Choux

Most Christian Conservatives consider homosexuality a "sin" and their leaders go on televised programs and preach against homosexual's having all legal rights that heterosexuals have. Too bad they don't have anything of value to place forward into the spotlight. All their fear and hate mongering is harmful to all of us.

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I think you're painting "most Christian Conservatives" with a broad brush. I do know there are some nazi-esque whack jobs out there, but what specific lawful legal rights that gays have now, are they trying to remove? There is a marriage issue as to having insurance and not applied to domestic partners, but in some cases large corporations permit insurance coverage anyway.



Bobby

You are mistaken, Bobby.

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Originally Posted by Choux

You are mistaken, Bobby.

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Choux,

Then show me what I'm missing. I don't attend their services, so if you have insider information please share. I do think that evangelical Christian evangelists seen on TV are loopy, nutty, and make a business out of wrestling money from old ladies, but are they specifically marching capital hill in attempt to forbid gays the rights they already have, equal to you and I? They appear shady and I don't even agree with their basic religious beliefs, even given the Judeo-Christian argument. However, no police officer that ever gave me a speeding ticket said "here Bob, you're going to fast in a residential, you've sinned." I just want to know what it is that has you putting "most Christian conservatives" in the same likes as the KKK, that do want to take away the rights of African-Americans, Jews, and anyone not shiny white.



Bobby

You're right on Choux

Just one example

If you were gay and now dead do not expect your survivors who are members there to hold a funeral service at the High Point Church in Arlington, Texas... even if your brother works there.
The High Point Church has room every Sunday for 5,000 people. The pastor's wife's brother's church will seat 38,000 in Houston, TX. However, gay people need not attend.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

You're right on Choux

Just one example

If you were gay and now dead do not expect your survivors who are members there to hold a funeral service at the High Point Church in Arlington, Texas...even if your brother works there.
The High Point Church has room every Sunday for 5,000 people. The pastor's wife's brother's church will seat 38,000 in Houston, TX. However, gay people need not attend.

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Since when did homosexuals start looking toward making funeral arrangements at the High Point Church in Arlington, Texas? Besides that statement just being a silly unrealistic approach that the gay community generally wouldn't pursue, that church has the right to decline, if I agree with it or not. They make the rules and you don't dictate to them. Nothing illegal! They are within the law, constitution, and amendments. Now come on folks, all I ask for was one example concerning legal rights.



Bobby

Rights have nothing to do with it, I was simply agreeing that “Most Christian Conservatives consider homosexuality a "sin" and provided an example.
No, it is not “a silly unrealistic approach by the gay community,' he had attended the Church as a youth and his brother worked there and made arrangements for the funeral; the day before it was to take place something happened so that it became known he was gay and the Church cancelled.

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Rights have nothing to do with it, I was simply agreeing that “Most Christian Conservatives consider homosexuality a "sin" and provided an example.
No, it is not “a silly unrealistic approach by the gay community,' he had attended the Church as a youth and his brother worked there and made arrangements for the funeral; the day before it was to take place something happened so that it became known he was gay and the Church cancelled.

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Everybody knows that Conservative Christians preach homosexuality is a sin. Choux goes out of her way to tell the world. So that's no revelation for her and I doubt for anyone else on this board.

You stopped short on quoting context. According to Choux, "Most Christian Conservatives consider homosexuality a "sin" and their leaders go on televised programs and preach against homosexual's having all legal rights that heterosexuals have." I asked for an example of lost legal rights or denied legal rights! The rules are set by that church and if they declined the funeral the day before or two minutes before, they still make the decisions involving their church.

Secondly it is unrealistic, and proved that way! I don't disagree that the church should had handled it differently or more tactfully though. The death of the man was sad. But that church didn't infringe on any ones legal rights. The man died and apparently lived a life that the church does not condone. As a Jew, that church might had done the same to me based on the fact I don't believe or live as they do. Not that I would ever seek to make funeral arrangements with the High Point Church in Arlington, Texas, and I don't think anybody in family is meshugenah enough to try it.



Bobby

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Choux,

Then show me what I'm missing. I don't attend their services, so if you have insider information please share. I do think that evangelical Christian evangelists seen on TV are loopy, nutty, and make a business out of wrestling money from old ladies, but are they specifically marching capital hill in attempt to forbid gays the rights they already have, equal to you and I? They appear shady and I don't even agree with their basic religious beliefs, even given the Judeo-Christian argument. However, no police officer that ever gave me a speeding ticket said "here Bob, you're going to fast in a residential, you've sinned." I just want to know what it is that has you putting "most Christian conservatives" in the same likes as the KKK, that do want to take away the rights of African-Americans, Jews, and anyone not shiny white.

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It's what Dennis said, "One member of group X says "boo," therefore ALL of group X must say "boo," also." Some loopy, nutty televangelist "attacks" employing "fear" which leads to "hate" and therefore all conservative Christians must also. I have insider information and I can't recall ever having met these people.

"I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate, John Edwards, but it turns out that you have to go into rehab if you use the word 'faggot,' so I'm - so, kind of at an impasse, can't really talk about Edwards, so I think I'll just conclude here and take your questions," said Coulter, whose comment was followed by applause.

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/CARI.Coulter.gif

The world hates the informer and the moralist.


Bobby

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Originally Posted by Dark_crow

Rights have nothing to do with it, I was simply agreeing that “Most Christian Conservatives consider homosexuality a "sin" and provided an example.
No, it is not “a silly unrealistic approach by the gay community,’ he had attended the Church as a youth and his brother worked there and made arrangements for the funeral; the day before it was to take place something happened so that it became known he was gay and the Church cancelled.

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CS Lewis :

Now what interests me about all these [argumentative] remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man's behavior does not happen to please him He is appealing to some kind of standard of behavior which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: "To hell with your standard." Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard... It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behavior or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really AGREED.. .
Quarreling means trying to show that the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football."


Christians see homosexuality as a sin, because it is. That is the Christian standard.
There are plenty of other sins such as pride, envy, adultery, stealing , murder etc...

It is a shame, and I think wrong, that some Christians focus on the sin of homosexuality almost exclusively.

But that does not change the fact that it is a sin.
I disagree with the notion that homosexuality, or any other sin [ for example adultery, or murder, or stealing... ] should get some sort of dispensation not to be a sin and thus the act be accepted as moral and right.





Grace and Peace

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Christians see homosexuality as a sin, because it is. That is the Christian standard.
There are plenty of other sins such as pride, envy, adultery, stealing , murder etc....

It is a shame, and I think wrong, that some Christians focus on the sin of homosexuality almost exclusively.

But that does not change the fact that it is a sin.
I disagree with the notion that homosexuality, or any other sin [ for example adultery, or murder, or stealing ... ] should get some sort of dispensation not to be a sin and thus the act be accepted as moral and right.


Grace and Peace

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/QUOTE again It is a shame, and I think wrong, that some Christians focus on the sin of homosexuality almost exclusively. ---> That is what I argue with Christians all the time.

Using their own standard that sex outside of marriage is a sin.
Adultery, fornication, homosexuality is considered a sin.
The Bible does not say one is worse than the other.
It is people in their own rationalizing that make it different degrees
and God says his ways are higher than ours.
Yet the church will counsel and work with the adulterer and the fornicator
and taboo the gay.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

CS Lewis :

Now what interests me about all these [argumentative] remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man's behavior does not happen to please him He is appealing to some kind of standard of behavior which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: "To hell with your standard." Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard ...... It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behavior or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really AGREED . ......
Quarreling means trying to show that the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football."

Christians see homosexuality as a sin, because it is. That is the Christian standard.
There are plenty of other sins such as pride, envy, adultery, stealing , murder etc....

It is a shame, and I think wrong, that some Christians focus on the sin of homosexuality almost exclusively.
But that does not change the fact that it is a sin.
I disagree with the notion that homosexuality, or any other sin [ for example adultery, or murder, or stealing ... ] should get some sort of dispensation not to be a sin and thus the act be accepted as moral and right.

Grace and Peace

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Christianity is not in agreement on the matter of sin, or homosexuality, baptism, Jesus, hell and a lot of different matters. I'm indifferent to their beliefs in so far as they don't try and impose them on me. Sin does not apply to me because sin is only a sin againt God and since I have no God, I have no sin. I have certainly done a great many things which I would if I could change, but that was poor judgment in my part.
So, I will be one of the ones who do reply to CS Lewis: "To hell with your standard."
:)