Do christians really study their bibles ? Isaiah 7: 14 is usually interpreted as a prophecy of the alleged virgin birth of Jesus; "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel". Was this really a prophecy at all ? Was it fulfilled hundreds of years later in Jesus ? If a person continues reading Isaiah on to the next chapter, 8: 3, we see that Isaiah didn't intend this alleged prophecy to refer to Jesus. Isaiah fulfilled the prophecy himself in his lifetime; "Then I went to the prophetess, & she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, 'Call his name Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz'. Isaiah had sexual relations with the prohetess, possibly is own wife, & she bore Isaiah a son". The prophecy has no reference to Jesus. Furthermore, the prophecy actually has no reference to a virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin used in Isa. 7: 14 is almah, which more properly refers to a young woman or a lass. If Isa. 7: 14 were really referring to a young woman who has not had sexual relations the Hebrew word would have been bethulah.

I was discussing this with a friend just last night.

One must be very careful which prophecies can be accurately described as Messianic and which are actually talking about something else altogether.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deist

Do christians really study their bibles ? Isaiah 7: 14 is usually interpreted as a prophecy of the alleged virgin birth of Jesus; "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel". Was this really a prophecy at all ? Was it fulfilled hundreds of years later in Jesus ? If a person continues reading Isaiah on to the next chapter, 8: 3, we see that Isaiah didn't intend this alleged prophecy to refer to Jesus. Isaiah fulfilled the prophecy himself in his lifetime; "Then I went to the prophetess, & she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, 'Call his name Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz'. Isaiah had sexual relations with the prohetess, possibly is own wife, & she bore Isaiah a son". The prophecy has no reference to Jesus. Furthermore, the prophecy actually has no reference to a virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin used in Isa. 7: 14 is almah, which more properly refers to a young woman or a lass. If Isa. 7: 14 were really referring to a young woman who has not had sexual relations the Hebrew word would have been bethulah.

---

I could go into other reasons to refute your assumption that this does not refer to Jesus, but let's just look at the most obvious. A "young woman" giving birth would not be a sign. I don't know how it is where you live, but young women giving birth is pretty much the norm, not a "sign". A virgin giving birth, however, now that would be something of note and definitely would fall into the "sign" category.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

I could go into other reasons to refute your assumption that this does not refer to Jesus, but let's just look at the most obvious. A "young woman" giving birth would not be a sign. I don't know how it is where you live, but young women giving birth is pretty much the norm, not a "sign". A virgin giving birth, however, now that would be something of note and definitely would fall into the "sign" category.

---

I believe the sign is in the name chosen for Isaiah's son, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (Hasting to the booty, or Swift to the prey).

You have posted a lot of bible related questions. No matter what who says God's Word remains perfect

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deist

Do christians really study their bibles ? Isaiah 7: 14 is usually interpreted as a prophecy of the alleged virgin birth of Jesus; "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel". Was this really a prophecy at all ? Was it fulfilled hundreds of years later in Jesus ? If a person continues reading Isaiah on to the next chapter, 8: 3, we see that Isaiah didn't intend this alleged prophecy to refer to Jesus. Isaiah fulfilled the prophecy himself in his lifetime; "Then I went to the prophetess, & she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, 'Call his name Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz'. Isaiah had sexual relations with the prohetess, possibly is own wife, & she bore Isaiah a son". The prophecy has no reference to Jesus. Furthermore, the prophecy actually has no reference to a virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin used in Isa. 7: 14 is almah, which more properly refers to a young woman or a lass. If Isa. 7: 14 were really referring to a young woman who has not had sexual relations the Hebrew word would have been bethulah.

---

You seem like a very codemning person Deist! Yes we study our Bibles. My question is that I don't see how these two events or prophesies are related except they are written by Isaiah?

FundiEv Christians study their Bibles all the time to the exclusion of other kinds of reading material.

The problem is comprehension, comprehension of contradictory material that in addition, suffers from translation and other problems old manuscripts have had over the ages. Most people read casually for the pleasure and affirming their views, not in depth which shows inconsistencies and other problems-I'm speaking of the New Testament here.

Yes, Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy, that was fulfilled in the birth of Christ, Immanuel, "God is with us." You either believe it or you do not. To say the prophecy was fulfilled by the birth of Isaiah's own son is false.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deist

I believe the sign is in the name chosen for Isaiah's son, Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (Hasting to the booty, or Swift to the prey).

---

You can believe what you wish, but let's see you prove that his mother was a virgin when he was born.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

You can believe what you wish, but let's see you prove that his mother was a virgin when he was born.

---

Even the word virgin in Isaiah 7: 14 (Hebrew almah) does not refer to a woman who has not had sexual relations, that would be the Hebrew word bethulah. Almah simply means "young woman", bethulah means "virgin".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deist

Even the word virgin in Isaiah 7: 14 (Hebrew almah) does not refer to a woman who has not had sexual relations, that would be the Hebrew word bethulah. Almah simply means "young woman", bethulah means "virgin".

---

Hebrew scholar Rashi disagrees with you. He argued that Almah meant virgin. “Behold the almah shall conceive and bare a son and shall call his name Immanuel. This means that our Creator shall be with us. And this is the sign: the one who will conceive is a girl (naarah), who never in her life has had intercourse with any man. Upon this shall the Holy Spirit have power". (Mikraoth Gedoloth on Isaiah 7:14)

Christians vary in their familiarity with the Bible. When Need Karma suggested Christians are fragmented, I agreed.

Don't flatter yourself into thinking you are going to find much new and profound. Christians and skeptics have been poking through the Bible for nearly 2000 years. The discussion of the word for a young woman is old. I have to agree with Mountain Man that connecting those 2 passages is a stretch.

I think one of the strongest proofs that Mary was a virgin was her little talk with the angel. I have never had an angel make himself know to me, but if one did, I don't think I would try lying out of stuff.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel".
If a person continues reading Isaiah on to the next chapter, 8: 3,
"Then I went to the prophetess, & she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, 'Call his name Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz'. Isaiah had sexual relations with the prohetess,

According to "Then I went to the prophetess, & she conceived and bore a son. Isaiah had sexual relations with the prohetess,
Contradicts
Behold, the virgin shall conceive

Often in the Old Testament even if it is referring to something or someone at that time it can also be foreshadowing or prophesying something yet to come like double meanings.