Okay Firstly its worth saying that I'm an atheist and my interest here is purely academic.

Now if we were to assume that the christian hypothesis of how the world works was true then your place in heaven is granted upon condition of not committing any sin (as detailed in the 10 commandments) and of believing in the existence of jesus christ.

Now islam is a derivation of the christian faith and so it contains the same god and the same commandments in addition to this it also details the and acknowledges the prophet Jesus Christ. Where it differs from christianity is that it believes that in addition to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus there was a 7th prophet by the name of Mohammed.

I am confused about how this would hypothetically bar a muslim from the gates to heaven?

In essence I want to know if a christian would believe that a muslim would be permitted into his understanding of heaven and if not then for what reason is this the case?

What difference does this make to you - a professed non believer in God? Is this for anyone to say? I do not think so.

I don't care who you are or what you believe, with Christianity there is but one way to get to Heaven. Romans 10:9, 10. Not quoting... Believe in your heart that Jesus died on the cross for your salvation and that God raised Him from the dead, confess it with your mouth and you are saved. Salvation is the only way to enter Heaven. If muslims or anyone else does this then they will not be "barred" from Heaven.
One of the conditions you stated as to getting into Heaven is not committing any sin... If that was a condition no one would make it. We will all sin, saved or otherwise. The one and ONLY way to get into Heaven is by being saved. There are no other "conditions". Now, a truly saved person will try their best not to sin and will ask for forgiveness for their sins. But until they reach Heaven they will continue to sin.

Everybody has a free choice whether to accept or reject Jesus Christ. This is the only thing your eternal destiny hinges upon, not your title or denomination.

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Originally Posted by shygrneyzs

What difference does this make to you - a professed non believer in God? Is this for anyone to say? I do not think so.

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I am just curious of the christian perspective on this and am always keen to better my understanding of different philosophies. In essence I want to know if a christian would believe that a muslim would be permitted into his understanding of heaven and if not then why?

I can't speak for Islam, but in Christianity, salvation depends on faith, with works as a result of faith. Not vice versa. Ephesians, 2: 8-11.

Only God can judge the heart and not an outward, manmade label, so I leave it to Him to determine who gets into Heaven. Matthew 7.




Grace and Peace

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Originally Posted by pedant

I am just curious of the christian perspective on this and am always keen to better my understanding of different philosphies. In essence I want to know if a christian would believe that a muslim would be permitted into his understanding of heaven and if not then why?

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When you say "his understanding" I'm unsure if you mean the muslims understanding of Heaven or the Christians understanding of Heaven. If you mean do Christians believe that a muslim would be permitted into Heaven then see my above post. Sure they can if they are saved. Do Christians believe that a muslim would be permitted into the muslims understanding of Heaven. Well, Chriatians only believe in the one way to enter into Heaven (salvation) so if the muslim doesn't believe the same, then NO he wouldn't get into Heaven. Why? Because we believe salvation is the only way.

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Originally Posted by pedant

Okay Firstly its worth saying that I'm an atheist and my interest here is purely academic.

Now if we were to assume that the christian hypothesis of how the world works was true then your place in heaven is granted upon condition of not committing any sin (as detailed in the 10 commandments) and of believing in the existence of jesus christ.

Now islam is a derivation of the christian faith and so it contains the same god and the same commandments in addition to this it also details the and acknowledges the prophet Jesus Christ. Where it differs from christianity is that it believes that in addition to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus there was a 7th prophet by the name of Mohammed.

I am confused about how this would hypothetically bar a muslim from the gates to heaven?

In essence I want to know if a christian would believe that a muslim would be permitted into his understanding of heaven and if not then for what reason is this the case?

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First things first,
Islam is not a derivation of Christianity, whatever people say otherwise.

Islam means submission to One God and it did not start with Muhammad(pbuh) in Arabia, it started with Adam (alaihi salaam).

Since then there have been many messengers/prophets as you mentioned,some had books revealed to them like the Taurat(torah),Injeel(original bible),Zabur(psalms),Quran.

Now about entering heaven, heaven is a mercy from the Almighty and even muslims are not guaranteed Paradise,but it is out of the mercy of the Almighty that we maybe allowed to enter(unless those that are already mentioned in the Quran that they will enter Heaven) .

We cannot know what is in the hearts of people at their time of death God knows and He alone decides who enters heaven or not.

And about Jesus (alaihi salaam) dying for my sins, I do not even believe he died,but he was taken up to the Almighty and will descend in later times to establish the truth and abolish falsehood.

If I was a sinner, no one can save me from the Hellfire except the Almighty.I alone am/will be responsible for my deeds good or bad.
Forgiveness is only from the Almighty,He alone grants paradise to whom He wills.

Somewhere, I forget just where, in one of his letters Paul says you can be saved by keeping the law. However the context there is about the impossibility of keeping the law.

I Like the Ephesians 2:8-11 too. Hard to believe we Christians have killed each other over the issue of salvation by faith or works.

The presumptions are not correct.

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Originally Posted by pedant

your place in heaven is granted upon condition of not committing any sin (as detailed in the 10 commandments) and of believing in the existence of jesus christ.

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All Christian groups agree with the teaching that all have sinned.

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Originally Posted by pedant

islam is a derivation of the christian faith

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Not true. Neither Moslems nor historians generally agree that Islam is a derivation of Christianity.

... that having been said, though, the Roman Catholic Christians today teaches this:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 3, SubSection 3, Heading 4
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

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Originally Posted by labman

Somewhere, I forget just where, in one of his letters Paul says you can be saved by keeping the law. However the context there is about the impossibility of keeping the law.

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You can be saved by keeping the law perfectly, but Romans 3:23 says that that we have all failed. Galatians 3 in particular and Galatians as a book is an excellent resource for studying about salvation and the law.

Gal 3:11-12
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
NKJV

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

What I believe is that God judge a person according to the kind of life that you live and not by your type of religion. But other people may differ from my point of veiw :)

All I can say is that I think that religion is all opinion.. people believe in different gods and that this and that happens... All opinion...

"It is by grace you have been saved" Ephisians 2:8
From that verse I got my username.

The only way to heaven is to believe in Jesus, Have faith in him. And repent from you sins.
I don't know how it is for Islam.

The muslims I've chatted with say that christians will not get into heaven because they worship a man (Jesus) as God. The christians say the muslims won't get into heaven because they don't worship Jesus as God.

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Originally Posted by Marily

What i believe is that God judge a person according to the kind of life that you live and not by your type of religion. But other people may differ from my point of veiw :)

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The problem with this approach is that it assumes that some sin is okay. Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and all we need to do is look at our own lives and that of others. Who do you know that has not sinned? Have you ever sinned (rhetorical question)?

They comes the question of what sins are okay. What about rape? What if a person led an exemplary life but raped once - is that okay? No matter what else that person may be, they are and will be a rapist.

What about theft? Is theft of a car okay? What about a penny? No matter what else they are, they are a thief.

What if someone murdered a person but otherwise led a good life - is that okay? The person is a murder.

Now the likelihood is that a person who commits one serious crime like this will commit others without a major change of heart.

Do you want to be in a heaven full of thieves, rapists and murders? Is that your idea of heaven? I hope that you agree that that would not be heaven.

When we receive Christ as our Saviour, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us and through His guidance, we are changed.

Tj3

I'm confused about what your trying to say.

The thief crucified at Jesus' side [ luke 20: 40-43 ] is guaranteed Heaven.
Jesus came for the sinners.

I, as a sinner, would want to be in heaven with other sinners and with a God who forgives and loves.

I do not want to be with self righteous people and a "god" who expects /demands perfection.





Grace and Peace

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Originally Posted by inthebox

tj3

I'm confused about what your trying to say.

The thief crucified at Jesus' side [ luke 20: 40-43 ] is gauranteed Heaven.
Jesus came for the sinners.

I, as a sinner, would want to be in heaven with other sinners and with a God who forgives and loves.

I do not want to be with self righteous people and a "god" who expects /demands perfection.

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I am not sure that you read what I said. ALL have sinned (Rom 3:23). All of us has sinned, all are sinners. Anyone who goes to heaven or to hell is a sinner.

You are right that Jesus came for sinners. Anyone who was not a sinner would not need a Saviour.

Self-righteous people will not make it to heaven since we have no righteousness of our own. The only way that we can be seen as righteous is to receive Jesus as Saviour. This is the message that John gave us in his letter:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

But the righteousness is not ours.

Rom 4:19-25
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

The righteousness that we have in heaven is not ours - but it is Jesus' righteousness covering our sins because it was Jesus who paid the price for our sins, not us.

Those who are self-righteousness and depend on their own righteousness will have a rude awakening, because we have no righteousness nor anything of merit which can earn our salvation.

Thus BECAUSE we are sinners, we need to receive Christ as Saviour in order to be guaranteed that we will go to heaven. Note that was the case with the thieves - only the one who receive Jesus as Saviour was guaranteed heaven. But hose who do not receive Jesus as saviour condemned themselves because of their sin.

John 3:16-19
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

I hope that clarifies it.

TJ3

Agree with what you have posted





Grace and Peace

The problem with providing answers from the bible to 'prove' your point is that other faiths have their own sacred writings and can 'prove' that the Bible is false. I'm sure God has a big laugh at all of this.